Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 10

by Various

Morning Session

DR. HORN: Witness, you knew Count Ciano. Where and when did you meet him?

VON STEENGRACHT: I knew Count Ciano but not in a political sense, only personally. I cannot remember exactly when I met him; probably it was on the occasion of a state visit. I was working at the time in the Protocol Department in the Foreign Office.

DR. HORN: What experiences did you have with Count Ciano?

VON STEENGRACHT: Since I did not work with him politically, I had no political experience with him.

DR. HORN: Now, another matter. Is it correct that Herr Von Ribbentrop gave orders that under all circumstances the French franc should be sustained against inflation?

VON STEENGRACHT: Such measures can apply only to a time when I was not yet State Secretary. But I know that the basic attitude towards France and all occupied territories was that under all circumstances their currency was to be preserved as far as possible, or rather should be preserved by all means. That is why we often sent gold to Greece in order to attempt to maintain the value of the currency there to some extent.

DR. HORN: What was accomplished in Greece by sending this gold there?

VON STEENGRACHT: By sending gold to Greece we lowered the rate of exchange of foreign currencies. Thus the Greek merchants who had hoarded food to a large extent, became frightened and threw the food on the market, and in this way it was made available to the Greek population again.

DR. HORN: Is it correct that Von Ribbentrop gave strictest orders not to undertake any confiscation in occupied territories but to deal directly only with their governments?

VON STEENGRACHT: If you put the question like that, it is basically correct, but I say, as I said yesterday, that in principle we had no functions at all in the occupied territories, therefore no power to confiscate, nor was such power within the jurisdiction of other agencies; but it is correct that we negotiated only with the foreign governments and that Von Ribbentrop had most strictly forbidden us to support any direct measures concerning an occupied country which were carried out by other departments.

DR. HORN: For the time being I have no further questions to put to this witness.

DR. EGON KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for Defendant Von Papen): Witness, are you well acquainted with Von Papen as a result of the period during which you were working in the Foreign Office and particularly during the time you were active as State Secretary in the Foreign Office?

VON STEENGRACHT: I had known Herr Von Papen for several years before 1933, but privately. Then I lost track of him for some time and re-established contact with him when I became State Secretary in the German Foreign Office. Then I was continually associated with him in an official and unofficial capacity.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did you, particularly in the last period of your activities as State Secretary, continually receive the reports which Von Papen, as Ambassador in Ankara, sent to Berlin?

VON STEENGRACHT: Unless Herr Von Papen sent reports directly to Von Ribbentrop—which may have been possible; I do not know—I received them weekly through official channels.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Do you remember that after two previous refusals Von Papen took over the post of Ambassador in Ankara, in April 1939, on the day that Italy occupied Albania, whereby an acute danger of war arose in the Southeast?

VON STEENGRACHT: At that time I was not State Secretary and also had no political position, so that I am not acquainted with the events of that period. But today I have the impression that he took over that position after the Italians had occupied Albania. And he himself told me later that at that time there was danger that the Italians would advance further into the Balkans, possibly causing a conflict with Turkey, as a result of which world peace would have been endangered. For that reason he had decided at the time to accept the post. Exactly on which day that was, I cannot say.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: What can you say in general about Herr Von Papen’s efforts toward peace?

VON STEENGRACHT: I am under the impression that Herr Von Papen always strove to preserve peace by every means. He certainly considered that it would be a great disaster for Germany and the world if war were to break out.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Were the efforts which Von Papen made during the war towards establishing peace aimed at foregoing any annexations regardless of the military outcome and completely re-establishing the sovereignty of occupied territories, in short, to achieve, by means of reasonable renunciation, a bearable status for all European states?

VON STEENGRACHT: In principle it was quite clear that Von Papen always worked for the re-establishment of peace under conditions which would have re-established full sovereignty for all countries, and so that no encroachment nor damage, material or otherwise would be inflicted on any foreign countries.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Was that Von Papen’s attitude even at the time of the greatest German military successes?

VON STEENGRACHT: I believe that his basic attitude in this respect never changed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Were his continuous personal efforts to establish peace held against Von Papen by Hitler, and was he considered a disagreeable outsider in that connection?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not have an opportunity to discuss it with Hitler; I only know that he was quite generally criticized by Hitler and other persons as a man who always followed a weak line.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Did Herr Von Papen frankly acknowledge that peace would be impossible as long as Hitler and the Party existed in Germany and the necessary credit for negotiating abroad was lacking?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I think it must have been about April 1943 or May 1943, that I spoke to Von Papen in detail about the whole subject, since, at that time, I had just become State Secretary. At that time he very clearly voiced the opinion to me which you have just sketched. It was quite plain to him that foreign countries would conclude no peace with Hitler and the methods he employed.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Just one last question, Witness: The Indictment accuses the Defendant Von Papen of being an unscrupulous opportunist. You, Witness, know the defendant from the reports and from all the official relations the defendant had with his superior office for a number of years. Did you, on the strength of that knowledge, get the impression that this characterization of Von Papen is correct, or can you say, on the strength of these reports and these official relations, that Von Papen appears to you to be a man who always tells the truth, even when that truth is disagreeable to his quite unpleasant superiors, and even when the voicing of that truth involves personal danger for him?

VON STEENGRACHT: I can say that is absolutely so. I find the best evidence of it is that Herr Von Papen was finally completely eliminated from the position of Vice-Chancellor and resigned from the government, then he became a private citizen and only in the greatest emergency was he called upon. In my opinion, Von Papen made himself available only because he said to himself, “I have still got a certain amount of credit, I am a good Catholic, and accordingly I represent an attitude which is opposed to all inhumanity, et cetera. Perhaps I can, through my intervention, exercise some influence in that direction.” I myself never attended a meeting or a conference which took place between Hitler and Von Papen, but, particularly from my liaison officer with Hitler, I often heard that Von Papen, in his smooth way, often told Hitler many things which no one else could have told Hitler and I believe that through his manner he prevented a number of things, at least for a time.

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Thank you.

DR. OTTO NELTE (Counsel for Defendant Keitel): Witness, you have stated that Hitler, because of the terrible bombing attack on Dresden, intended to issue an order according to which thousands of prisoners of war were to be killed in reprisal.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

DR. NELTE: Do I remember your testimony of yesterday correctly, that all you have said about this matter is information from, or based on information from Herr Von Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: No.

DR. NELTE: What do you know from your own personal knowledge?

VON STEENGRACHT: From my own personal knowledge I only know that our liaison man with Hitler called me on the telephone and told me that Goebbels had proposed to Hitler that 10,000 or more British and American prisoners of war be shot in reprisal, and that Hitler would agree or had agreed. I immediately reported this to Von Ribbentrop, and he went there at once and told me after half an hour that the order had been withdrawn. About Field Marshal Keitel I know nothing at all in that connection.

DR. NELTE: You do not know, therefore, who was the originator of that order?

VON STEENGRACHT: No.

DR. NELTE: Who suggested it, I mean.

VON STEENGRACHT: The suggestion for that order evidently came from Goebbels according to the information which I received.

DR. NELTE: Through Herr Von Ribbentrop, do you mean?

VON STEENGRACHT: Who?

DR. NELTE: Through Herr Von Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, Von Ribbentrop had nothing to do with that.

DR. NELTE: Then from Herr Hewel?

VON STEENGRACHT: Herr Hewel told me that. He called me up and told me that.

DR. NELTE: And you know nothing about the participation of military men?

VON STEENGRACHT: I know nothing at all about the participation of military men.

DR. NELTE: Thank you very much.

DR. HANS LATERNSER (Counsel for General Staff and High Command of the German Armed Forces): Witness, I have only one question. Did you, as State Secretary, or did the Foreign Office regularly inform military offices, for instance, the Army High Command or the High Command of the Navy, with reference to pertinent matters of German politics?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, they were not informed.

DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Does the British Prosecutor wish to cross-examine?

COLONEL H. J. PHILLIMORE (Junior Counsel for the United Kingdom): Witness, you told us yesterday that the Defendant Ribbentrop was against the persecution of the churches, was against the persecution of Jews, and did not know what was going on in the concentration camps. You have told us that he was not a typical Nazi. What are the qualities of a typical Nazi?

VON STEENGRACHT: By a typical National Socialist, I mean a man who fanatically acknowledges and represents all the doctrines of National Socialism.

Herr Von Ribbentrop, as I said, followed Hitler personally, but he really knew uncommonly little of any of the other ideology and never bothered about it. He never spoke at meetings, never participated in large rallies, and therefore, he really knew extremely little about the people and the mood of the people.

COL. PHILLIMORE: By “a typical Nazi,” do you mean someone who was persecuting the churches?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not understand that question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will repeat it. By “a typical Nazi,” do you mean a man who was engaged in persecution of the churches?

VON STEENGRACHT: At any rate, someone who, if Adolf Hitler considered it right, did not state his personal opinion on the matter.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And a man who would take his full share in persecution and extermination of Jews?

VON STEENGRACHT: That I would not like to say either. That was limited to a certain circle of people. A large number even of fanatical Nazis knew nothing about these atrocities and repudiated them and would have repudiated them, had they been properly informed of them.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I understand you to say that you knew nothing of them yourself. Is that so?

VON STEENGRACHT: That I knew nothing?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes.

VON STEENGRACHT: In my position as State Secretary and because I read foreign papers, and particularly since I had contact with the opposition, I knew of many things connected with concentration camps. In all these cases, as far as it was in my power, I intervened. But regarding the things which I have heard here now, I knew nothing at all.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to ask you about another matter. You have told us that Ribbentrop had no responsibility in the occupied territories. Your words were that “the Foreign Office lost responsibility at that moment at which the German bayonet crossed the frontier.” Is that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: I said that at that moment at which the German bayonet crossed the frontier the Foreign Office lost the sole right to negotiate with foreign governments everywhere. Beyond that, in most countries, the Foreign Office did not have the right to have even a diplomatic observer without authority, particularly in Norway and the Eastern Territories.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You have said the Foreign Office had no right to have an observer there, and that direct relations with occupied territories were withdrawn, is that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, I said that in all occupied territories the Foreign Office no longer had the sole right to negotiate with the government, since there was then either a civil administration in those countries or a military government with auxiliary command offices and a military administrative head, and that these offices themselves then approached the foreign governments and their executive organs in the countries occupied at that time. Consequently one can no longer say that the Foreign Office had the sole right to negotiate with the governments. But in some countries, as in the North and the East, we no longer had any of our people at all, and Hitler had issued the order that we withdraw our observers from the other countries, such as Holland, Belgium and so on. However, we did not do so.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You say that in France you had an ambassador reporting direct to Ribbentrop, did you not?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And his duties included advising the Secret Field Police and the Secret State Police by the impounding of politically important documents and securing and seizure of public property; further, of private and, above all, Jewish artistic property on the basis of instructions especially given for the matter. Isn’t that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: I already emphasized yesterday that only since 1943 had I anything at all to do with political affairs. If I understood your question correctly, Mr. Prosecutor, you are of the opinion that the Secret State Police and the German executive organs in France were under our jurisdiction. That is incorrect.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You are not answering the question. I asked you if the Minister Abetz had not got those duties.

VON STEENGRACHT: He did not have the assignment of confiscating any French property or carrying out any action against the Jews. No orders of that kind went through my hands during my time, and he could...

COL. PHILLIMORE: [Handing the document to the witness.] Will you look at Document 3614-PS.

My Lord, that was put in as French Exhibit Number RF-1061 on the 4th of February. It is a letter dated the 3rd of August 1940, signed by Ribbentrop, to the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (OKW). It reads:

“The Führer has appointed the former Minister Abetz Ambassador and after my report has decreed as follows:

“I. Ambassador Abetz has the following tasks in France...”

then it sets out a number of tasks and Number 6 is the one I put to the witness:

“6. Advising the Secret Field Police and the Secret State Police in connection with the impounding of politically important documents.

“7. Securing and seizure of public art property; further, of private and, above all, Jewish artistic property on the basis of instructions specially given for this case.”

Then the concluding paragraphs:

“II. The Führer has hereby expressly ordered that Ambassador Abetz is exclusively responsible for the handling of all political questions in Occupied, and Unoccupied France. Insofar as his functions touch military interests, Ambassador Abetz will act only in agreement with the Military Commander in France.

“III. Ambassador Abetz is attached to the Military Commander in France as his Commissioner. His seat remains Paris as heretofore. He receives instructions for carrying out his tasks from me and is responsible exclusively to me on these matters.”—Signed—“Ribbentrop.”

I want to ask you one or two questions about the Jews. You have told us that you and the Defendant Ribbentrop...

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Phillimore, the Tribunal would like to know why this witness told them that Ambassador Abetz did not have the task of confiscating property.

[Turning to the witness.] Why did you say that?

VON STEENGRACHT: Ambassador Abetz had no executive powers, and he was expressly forbidden to intervene in French internal affairs. He could, therefore, address himself exclusively to the French Government, and if the French Government did anything by means of their executive power, then that was a transaction on the part of the French Government but never a confiscation carried out by Abetz.

COL. PHILLIMORE: That is not an answer to the question. The question is why, when you were asked whether Abetz had the task of advising the Secret Field Police and the Secret State Police on the impounding of politically important documents, did you not say so?

VON STEENGRACHT: I said that no order went through my hands, since I did not become State Secretary until May 1943. This is an order of 3 August 1940. But here we are concerned only with an official directive addressed to Ambassador Abetz.

COL. PHILLIMORE: At this time you were Ribbentrop’s personal adjutant, weren’t you?

VON STEENGRACHT: I was adjutant, but not political secretary. I was only...

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were adjutant?

VON STEENGRACHT: I was adjutant, that is to say I was concerned with technical matters. At that time I never presented a political report to him. But I should add, if I may, this concerns a directive to Ambassador Abetz and this directive was completely outdated by actual conditions. Because advising the Secret Field Police...

COL. PHILLIMORE: How do you know that, if you were only personal adjutant and not acting in political matters?

VON STEENGRACHT: Ambassador Abetz was ambassador until May 1945. Therefore from 1943 to 1945 I continuously corresponded with him, and during that time Ambassador Abetz continually fought against the measures which were carried out by the Secret State Police anyway. It was a bitter struggle and he was personally threatened in all possible matters. One can talk about advice, but whether people heeded him—he had no power—that is quite another question.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Does it come to this, that your answer about occupied territories applies only after 1943?

VON STEENGRACHT: From my own experience I can speak only about the period after 1943.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Now, I want to turn to the question of Jews. You have told us that you and Ribbentrop, by adopting a policy of delay, prevented the holding of the Anti-Jewish Congress in 1944; is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And that you were against the policy of persecution of the Jews.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And so was the Defendant Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I want you to look at Document 3319-PS. [Handing the document to the witness.]

My Lord, that is a new document. It will be Exhibit GB-287.

[Turning to witness.] Now you have got a photostat there. Will you look at Page 4 of the German—that’s the first page of the English. That is a letter dated the 28th of April on the subject of anti-Jewish action in foreign countries. It is marked at the bottom of Page 4.

VON STEENGRACHT: I have not found it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Will you look at Page 4, marked in a black square at the bottom of the page. You see a letter dated the 28th of April 1944, Subject: Anti-Jewish action in foreign countries, and it is addressed to practically every German legation and mission abroad.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Turn to Page 10. You will see that it purports to be signed by you; is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You remember the letter? I will read you the first paragraph to refresh your memory. “The Reich Foreign Minister...”

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: “...has ordered the creation of Information Department XIV (Anti-Jewish Action Abroad) under the leadership of Envoy I. K. Schleier, whose task it is to deepen and strengthen the anti-Jewish information service abroad by the incorporation of all experts of the departments and working units of the Foreign Office who have an interest and take part in the anti-Jewish information service abroad, in close co-operation with all offices outside the Foreign Office which are engaged in anti-Jewish work and with the German missions in Europe.”

Then you set out the co-workers, number of departments of the Foreign Office, and then one permanent representative of the Reich Security Main Office—that’s Himmler’s office, isn’t it?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And one representative of the office of Reichsleiter Rosenberg. That department just up above “Inland II,” that is the Foreign Office which had liaison with the SS, isn’t it?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: At that time the chief was a man called Wagner and the assistant chief, Von Thadden?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Do you still say that you were against the policy of persecution of the Jews?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I maintain that now as before. I also say, as I have already said during earlier interrogations, that even the holding of an anti-Jewish congress in its effect would not have been directed against the Jews because what was happening in Germany was all taking place under the seal of secrecy and no one was informed in any way. The Jews disappeared. But if there had been an international congress, one would have been forced in the first place to bring up the question: where are these Jews anyway? What is actually happening to these Jews?

COL. PHILLIMORE: Is the point this, that you wanted to put off an anti-Jewish congress because that would be known to the world, but you were quite prepared to set up an organization in the Foreign Office?

VON STEENGRACHT: Gentlemen, we must separate two completely different problems here. The one problem is this: There were offices in Germany which conducted and carried out anti-Jewish measures. These organizations also reached abroad and there, without the knowledge and without the participation of the Foreign Office, did away with the people in foreign countries. Consequently, an improvement and a policy guided to some extent into normal channels could exist only if some German department had really assumed responsibility for these things at that time. For we did not hear of these matters; we always heard the complaints which we received from foreign mission heads about events which took place. But we had no means of control. If I applied to the inner German offices...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Was this set up to control the anti-Jewish policy, this department?

VON STEENGRACHT: Apparently we are discussing two different matters here today. The anti-Jewish congress had been ordered. The fact that Rosenberg’s office was holding an anti-Jewish congress...

THE PRESIDENT: You are not answering the question. The question was: Was this organization, referred to in this letter, set up to control the organization of anti-Jewish work abroad? That is the question. Can you not answer that by “yes” or “no”?

VON STEENGRACHT: The Foreign Office could not exercise general control since all anti-Jewish questions were principally dealt with in Rosenberg’s office.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Well then, what was the purpose of this organization of the Foreign Office?

VON STEENGRACHT: By Hitler’s order we had to contact all German departments and archives in order to collect all the material there, and we attached importance...

COL. PHILLIMORE: And this was ordered by Ribbentrop, wasn’t it?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: As set out in your letter?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. And we thought it important that we get an idea in this way of what was actually happening to the Jews, et cetera, and therefore we drew in people from all offices.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I will show you in a minute what was actually happening and out of your own files, but I just want to put this to you:

The point of your putting off the anti-Jewish congress was simply because you did not want the world to know. You had not the slightest objection to setting up an anti-Jewish organization in Germany.

Now, will you look at Page 32 of the German text.

My Lord, that is on Page 23 of the English text.

You will see there a letter from Rosenberg’s office to the Foreign Office, signed by Bräutigam, Page 32 of the German text. It is marked at the bottom of Page 32.

Bräutigam was your liaison officer with Rosenberg, wasn’t he, Witness? Was Bräutigam your liaison officer in Rosenberg’s office?

VON STEENGRACHT: No. Bräutigam was, I think, in the Foreign Office in 1941.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And in 1942.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, but in 1941, since he had previously been working on Eastern problems in the Foreign Office, he had been transferred and was now in the Rosenberg office.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. And you will see there he is referring to a conference with Obersturmbannführer Eichmann, that is, the chief of the Jewish section of the Gestapo, and a Dr. Wetzel, and he sends you a copy of an agreement made at Tighina in Romania on the 30th of August 1941 with the request for acknowledgment.

VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor, there could be an error here. This letter is dated 11 March 1942. I became State Secretary in May 1943. I therefore know nothing about this matter. I should like to remark...

COL. PHILLIMORE: You just listen and wait until you are asked a question. We shall get on faster if you just listen to the letter:

“I point out especially Number 7 of the agreements... I have already taken a position in my letter of 5 March 1942.”

Now, that enclosed an agreement made between the German and Romanian General Staffs, and, if you will look at Paragraph 7, on Page 38 of the German, Page 27 of the English, this was the agreement they made:

“Deportation of Jews from Transnistria. Deportation of Jews across the Bug is not possible at present. They must, therefore, be collected in concentration camps and set to work until a deportation to the east is possible after the end of operations.”

And then there’s a note on the file on the next page of the German, still on Page 27 of the English:

“According to information from Director General Lecca, today 110,000 Jews are being evacuated from Bukovina and Bessarabia into two forests in the Bug River Area. As far as he could learn, this action is based upon an order issued by Marshal Antonescu. Purpose of the action is the liquidation of these Jews.”

Now, do you doubt that that agreement, enclosed with that letter sent to the Foreign Office, would have reached the Defendant Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: Well. I see this document and this agreement for the first time today. Nothing of this entire affair...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. Would you answer the question? Do you doubt that that letter and that agreement enclosed with it would have been shown to the Defendant Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: At that time there was an Under Secretary of State Luther in the Foreign Office who acted quite independently; and I fought a bitter battle against him although I was not called upon to do it, because he wanted to introduce National Socialist methods. Whether he submitted this matter to Ribbentrop or not I cannot decide.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Very well. We come to a time when you were the State Secretary. Would you look at Page 31 of the German text, Page 20 of the English.

THE PRESIDENT: What do the words that follow the passage you have just read mean on Page 27: “Bucharest, 17 October 1941 (Signature illegible)”—and below—“To be discussed with Vice Minister President Antonescu. Confidential, Bucharest, 16 October 1943”?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is badly typed. “Bucharest, 17 October 1943” and then follows the next letter. The previous part is a note on the file.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

COL. PHILLIMORE: It is a note on the German Legation file on Bucharest.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I have not troubled the Tribunal with the following letters. They deal with the earlier date on the expulsion of Jews from firms owned by citizens of the German Reich.

[Turning to the witness.] Now would you look at Page 31 of the German, Page 20 of the English. You will see there a document sent to...

THE PRESIDENT: When you started that document you didn’t give the date in full. The year there appears to be 1944, doesn’t it?

COL. PHILLIMORE: It is not. In 1942, I think, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: It should be April 29, 1942? Is the date at the head of the document?

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, the letter I read was dated March ’42 and marked with a foreign office stamp “Received 13th of March 1942...”

THE PRESIDENT: I am speaking of the whole document, Page 1 of the document.

COL. PHILLIMORE: My Lord, it is a file, one of those rather inconvenient documents, a file, and it starts with the earliest date at the bottom and then works up to 1944.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, then the part you read first...

COL. PHILLIMORE: That was 1944.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. What page are you going to now?

COL. PHILLIMORE: I was going to Page 20 now, My Lord.

[Turning to the witness.] Now, this is a communication from Von Thadden who was, as you have told us, assistant in the Department Inland II, to the German Legation in Bucharest. It is dated 12 October 1943, and it is stamped as received on 18 October. And he encloses a letter signed by Müller in the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, to all German police authorities abroad. You will see that it goes to the commander of the Security Police in Prague, The Hague, Paris, Brussels, Metz, Strasbourg, Luxembourg, Kraków, Kiev, Smolensk, and so on. October ’43. That is after you had become Secretary of State, isn’t it?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were appointed in April?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Turning to the substance of the letter, the subject is the treatment of Jews with foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power:

“In agreement with the Foreign Office, all Jews who remain in the sphere of German power after the end of the so-called home-bringing action and who have the citizenship of the following countries may now be included in the evacuation measures: Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Hungary, Romania, Turkey.

“Since the evacuation of these Jews to the East cannot yet take place at the present time, for reasons of foreign policy, a temporary stay is provided in Concentration Camp Buchenwald for male Jews over 14 years of age and in the Concentration Camp Ravensbrück for Jewesses and children.

“The necessary measures are to be carried out on the following dates:

“a) for Jews with Italian citizenship, immediately;

“b) for Jews with Turkish citizenship, on 20 October 1943;

“c) for Jews with citizenship of other countries mentioned above, on 10 October 1943.

“A special application for protective custody is not required for the transfer to the concentration camp, but the concentration camp headquarters are to be notified that the transfer to the concentration camp is taking place in keeping with the evacuation measures.”

And then there are arrangements about baggage. And if you look at 31-e, you will see at the foot of Page 22, on the English, that that had been signed by Müller and then was signed again by a clerk of Himmler’s office. And then on the next page of the English, still on 31-e of the German, Himmler’s office sends it to the Foreign Office, to Von Thadden, on 2 October.

Now, did you not see that document when it got to the Foreign Office?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, I see this document today for the first time.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You were the State Secretary?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. This obviously concerns a measure which was ordered by another office. Within the German Reich the Foreign Office had no executive powers at all and no possibilities and consequently...

COL. PHILLIMORE: No executive powers, but it was sent to you for information.

VON STEENGRACHT: That was sent to us, this affair, solely for our information, and it was not given to me, this affair.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You had a departmental liaison with the SS, a Mr. Von Thadden. Was he not a competent official?

VON STEENGRACHT: The exact content of this affair I do not even know now, because I have not read it through at leisure. I can imagine only the following in reference to this whole matter: The question whether the Jews who were in Germany could be returned to their home countries was discussed for a long time. This, I think, is what we are concerned with here?

COL. PHILLIMORE: I don’t think we are interested in your imagination. Either you know or do not know. I asked you whether Von Thadden was a competent official.

VON STEENGRACHT: I have not seen this document.

COL. PHILLIMORE: You are not answering the question. Was Von Thadden a competent official?

VON STEENGRACHT: Von Thadden was a man from the Foreign Office who knew his job.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, knew his job. And do you not think that as State Secretary he ought to have shown you this document?

VON STEENGRACHT: He should have done that, certainly, if this matter was not arranged in another office, and I was completely excluded from the anti-Jewish action. Also instructions about anti-Jewish actions abroad never went through my office. I pointed out yesterday, at the beginning of my statement, that many matters were arranged directly in the highest places, and that the Foreign Office also was not notified afterwards, and orders in these matters...

COL. PHILLIMORE: This is a document you were informed about?

VON STEENGRACHT: Müller sent it to the Foreign Office.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And you sent it to your legation at Bucharest?

VON STEENGRACHT: He ought certainly to have put that before me. But I did not see it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: And if you just look again at the letter, you notice how Müller’s instructions start. He begins, “In agreement with the Foreign Office...”

VON STEENGRACHT: Where does it say so? Unfortunately I have not found it.

COL. PHILLIMORE: At the start of the letter: “Subject: Treatment of Jews of foreign citizenship in the sphere of German power.” And then he begins: “In agreement with the Foreign Office...” Does that just mean in agreement with Mr. Von Thadden?

VON STEENGRACHT: I assume that this type of thing went to the competent experts, and since this concerns a basic matter it was put directly before Herr Von Ribbentrop. I request that Herr Von Ribbentrop should be asked whether he knows of this matter or not. I have not seen this matter.

COL. PHILLIMORE: This is a matter of such importance that it could not have been agreed with the Foreign Office without Ribbentrop being consulted; isn’t that the case?

VON STEENGRACHT: In my opinion, I would never have decided alone on this matter if it had been put before me. I am of the opinion that it was an affair which would have to be put before Von Ribbentrop.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Good. And, of course, Von Ribbentrop was one of the most ruthless persecutors of Jews, wasn’t he?

VON STEENGRACHT: That is not correct.

COL. PHILLIMORE: I am going to read you a short passage from a conference between the Führer, Ribbentrop and the Hungarian Regent, Horthy. This is Document D-736, which was put in as Exhibit GB-283 by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe, to the Defendant Göring. This was a meeting at Klessheim Castle on the morning of 17 of April 1943. And you see the minutes are signed by Schmidt.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. PHILLIMORE: The question of Jews was raised:

“The Führer replied that it was the fault of the Jews who considered hoarding and profiteering as their main sphere of activity, even during the World War; in exactly the same way as in England, sentences for rationing offenses, and the like, now chiefly concern Jews. To Horthy’s counterquestion as to what he should do with the Jews, now that he had deprived them of almost all possibilities of livelihood—he could not kill them off—the Reich Foreign Minister declared that the Jews must either be exterminated or taken to concentration camps. There was no other possibility.”

And then, you see, the Führer goes on to describe them as tuberculosis bacilli. Now, in the face of that document, do you still say that the Defendant Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?

VON STEENGRACHT: I said yesterday already that Herr Von Ribbentrop, when he was with Hitler...

COL. PHILLIMORE: Never mind what you said yesterday. I am putting it to you now, today. You have now seen that document. Do you still say that Ribbentrop was against the policy of persecution and extermination of the Jews?

VON STEENGRACHT: Here, too, I should like to make a distinction between the real instincts of Von Ribbentrop and what he said when he was under Hitler’s influence. I said already yesterday that he was completely hypnotized by Hitler and then became his tool.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes, became his tool. And from then on, he was prepared to do anything that Hitler wanted and was as violent a Nazi as anyone; isn’t that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: He followed blindly the orders given by Hitler.

COL. PHILLIMORE: Yes. And to the extent of conniving at any and every atrocity, isn’t that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: Since he had no executive powers he personally did not commit these cruelties.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other chief prosecutors want to cross-examine?

COL. AMEN: You testified yesterday that you did not consider Ribbentrop to be a typical Nazi; is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: Do you consider Göring to be a typical Nazi?

VON STEENGRACHT: Göring made speeches at every type of meeting and fought for the seizure of power, and accordingly he had a completely different position in the party than Ribbentrop.

COL. AMEN: I think you can answer my question “yes” or “no.” We are trying to save time as much as possible.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, certainly.

COL. AMEN: Do you consider Göring to be a typical Nazi according to the same standards that you were using with Ribbentrop, yes or no?

VON STEENGRACHT: This question one cannot answer in that way with “yes” or “no.” I am trying every...

COL. AMEN: You answered it that way with respect to Ribbentrop, didn’t you?

VON STEENGRACHT: Göring was a peculiar type of person. I cannot class him with the ordinary Nazis, as one usually expresses it.

COL. AMEN: In other words, you don’t know whether you think he is a typical Nazi or not, is that what you want the Tribunal to understand?

VON STEENGRACHT: By a typical Nazi one understands the “average” Nazi. Göring is a unique person and one cannot compare his manner of living with the other National Socialists.

COL. AMEN: Well, are you acquainted with all of the gentlemen in the box there in front of you?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: Now, will you tell me which of those individuals you consider to be a typical Nazi, according to the standards which you applied yesterday to Ribbentrop?

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I do not want to interrupt your cross-examination, but want to say that there is too much laughter and noise in Court, and I cannot have it. Go on, Colonel, with your cross-examination.

COL. AMEN: Do you understand my last question? Please name those of the defendants in the box whom you consider to be typical Nazis, on the same standard which you yesterday applied to Ribbentrop.

DR. HORN: Mr. President, I am convinced that here the witness is making a decision which in my opinion should be made by the Court at the end of the proceedings. That is an evaluation which the witness cannot make.

COL. AMEN: This is the subject that was brought up by this very Counsel yesterday with respect to Ribbentrop.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks it a perfectly proper question. They understand that the phrase “a typical Nazi” was used by the witness himself.

COL. AMEN: And please just give us the names and not a long explanation, if you can.

VON STEENGRACHT: I said yesterday that by “typical Nazi” I meant people who are familiar with the dogma and doctrine. I want to add today that by “typical Nazis” I mean further those people who during the time of struggle represented National Socialist ideology and were propagandists of National Socialism. Rosenberg’s book is known, Herr Frank, as President of the Academy for German Law is known, these are really—Hess, of course, too—and these are people whom I want to put into the foreground very particularly because by their writings and so forth and by their speeches they became known. No one ever heard Ribbentrop make an election speech.

COL. AMEN: But you are not answering my question. Am I to assume from that that in your opinion Rosenberg, Frank and Hess are the only persons whom you could characterize as being typical Nazis, according to your standards?

VON STEENGRACHT: Well, shall I go through the ranks of the defendants to give an opinion on each one?

COL. AMEN: Precisely. Just give me the names. No, I do not want your opinion. I want to know under your standards which of them you consider to be typical Nazis.

VON STEENGRACHT: I have already stated the standard before. It can be proved by whether the people unreservedly represented the National Socialist ideology in words or at meetings and in this respect I named the prominent ones.

COL. AMEN: And you consider all of the others not to be typical Nazis? Correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not say that. Then I would have to go through them individually.

COL. AMEN: I have asked you to do that three times. Will you please name them individually?

VON STEENGRACHT: I also see Herr Sauckel. Herr Sauckel was Gauleiter and was active as a leader in the National Socialist movement. Then I see the Reich Youth Leader, who educated the Hitler Youth.

COL. AMEN: Who else? Just give me the names. Do not give these explanations, please.

VON STEENGRACHT: Well, I think that with that I have pointed out the typical representatives of the Party.

COL. AMEN: Well, how about Streicher?

VON STEENGRACHT: I do not see him here, or I would have answered in the affirmative.

COL. AMEN: In other words, you consider him to be a typical Nazi under your standards?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, but please do not attribute his abuses to all National Socialists.

COL. AMEN: Now, while you were working with Ribbentrop, do I understand that you knew nothing about the murders, tortures, starvations and killings which were taking place in the concentration camps?

VON STEENGRACHT: By the fact that foreign diplomats applied to me, and by the fact that I was informed by opposition elements in Germany, and from enemy propaganda, I knew of the existence and some of the methods. But, I emphasize, only a part of the methods. I learned about the total extent and degree only in internment here.

COL. AMEN: Did you know that priests were being tortured and starved and killed in concentration camps while you were working with Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, I heard nothing specific regarding individual things that occurred there, and if that had happened or has happened to priests, then I would consider the only authentic information to be that which the Nuncio or the Vatican had given me; but that did not occur. But in spite of the fact that, as I said yesterday, the Vatican had no jurisdiction, I took care of all cases based on humanity, that is, all humanitarian cases. I took care of them, and always strove to handle them successfully. I handled 87 cases in which my activity threatened to bring about my death. I intervened in hundreds of cases, and thus saved, or at least improved, the lives of thousands and thousands of people.

COL. AMEN: If you don’t confine your answers directly to my questions, it is very difficult to get through and to save time. Now, will you please try to answer my questions “yes” or “no,” if possible, and make your explanations short. Do you understand?

VON STEENGRACHT: I understand perfectly. As far as I can, I shall of course do so.

COL. AMEN: Did you know that nuns were being tortured and starved and killed in concentrations camps, while you were working with Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: No.

COL. AMEN: You did not know either about what was happening to priests or the nuns or to other inmates of concentrations camps? Correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: I have just said that I have intervened in hundreds of cases, in which I was approached by the Nuncio even when it concerned Jews, for whom the Nuncio was not authorized to act, and in cases in which the Nuncio was acting on behalf of Polish clergymen, also a sphere for which he was not authorized. In spite of the fact that I had strictest orders not to receive such cases, I did receive the cases; and, in spite of the “Nacht und Nebel” decree, I always gave information when I could get any information. Details other than those which I received officially I did not have.

COL. AMEN: And who gave you the instructions not to do anything about these complaints?

VON STEENGRACHT: These orders came directly from Hitler and came to me through Ribbentrop.

COL. AMEN: How do you know?

VON STEENGRACHT: I have already said yesterday that the two notes which before my time were passed by State Secretary Von Weizsäcker to Hitler through Ribbentrop were rejected with the remarks that they were blunt lies and, apart from that, this was not within the jurisdiction of the Nuncio; these notes were to be returned and in the future such documents were not to be accepted. Furthermore, there were to be no discussions and that applied, not only to the Nuncio, it applied to all unauthorized actions particularly when foreign diplomats intervened in matters in which they had no jurisdiction.

COL. AMEN: But do you want the Tribunal to understand that you went ahead and tried to do something about these complaints, whereas Ribbentrop did nothing; is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: I tried to settle within my own sphere of jurisdiction all cases which, according to instructions, I was not permitted to accept at all. But if a case here and there was of primary importance, or where the lives of several people could have been saved, I always applied to Ribbentrop. In most of these cases Ribbentrop took the matter before Hitler, after we had invented a new competence, so that he could not raise the objection that the Nuncio had no jurisdiction. Upon this, Hitler either absolutely rejected them or at least said that the police would have to investigate the case first. This presented the grotesque picture that in a humanitarian matter or an affair which under all circumstances had to be handled as foreign politics, the Foreign Minister no longer made the decision, but the Criminal Inspector Meier or Schulze who only needed to state “Undesirable in the interests of state security.”

COL. AMEN: Did Ribbentrop obey the instructions which you say were received from the Führer not to do anything about these complaints or did he not? “Yes” or “no”?

VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot answer that question since I do not know how many orders he received from Hitler and whether he obeyed in each individual case.

COL. AMEN: Well, you have been testifying that you received instructions not to do anything about these complaints from the Vatican; is that not correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, and I did not obey them.

COL. AMEN: Well, I am now asking you whether Ribbentrop obeyed those instructions or whether he did not.

VON STEENGRACHT: But he was in a higher position. What orders Hitler gave to Ribbentrop privately I cannot say since I do not know.

COL. AMEN: Where did you receive your instructions from?

VON STEENGRACHT: From Ribbentrop.

COL. AMEN: Ribbentrop has testified under interrogation that he knew nothing of what went on in any of these concentration camps until the Führer ordered Luther to be placed in a concentration camp. Do you know who Luther was?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: Who was he, please?

VON STEENGRACHT: Luther was an Under Secretary of State of the Foreign Office who was the head of the “Deutschland” department.

COL. AMEN: And when was he placed in a concentration camp?

VON STEENGRACHT: That must have been about February 1943.

COL. AMEN: Now, as a matter of fact, is it not true that Ribbentrop had a whole deskful of complaints from the Vatican about killings, atrocities, the starving of priests and nuns, to which he never made any reply at all, even an acknowledgment?

VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor, what happened before May 1943, I do not know. As long as I was State Secretary, I never failed to accept a note or failed to answer it. On the contrary, I accepted all notes and attempted, as I said before, to assist these people. Regarding conditions before my term of service, I cannot give you any information because I do not know them.

COL. AMEN: Well, I am not talking about that time; I am talking about the period immediately before and following your appearance there in ’43. Now I want to read you from...

VON STEENGRACHT: I am sorry. I would gladly answer your question if I knew anything about the matter. During my time—I cannot say anything about it because I do not know.

COL. AMEN: Well, I will read to you from the interrogation of Ribbentrop and ask you whether what he says conforms with your recollection of the facts.

VON STEENGRACHT: I should only like to say that until May 1943 I was not active politically, so that from my own knowledge I cannot make a statement about it.

COL. AMEN: Well, as I read the testimony to you, you will find that the interrogation refers to communications which remained in his desk unanswered for an indefinite period of time. Did you have access to Ribbentrop’s desk? Did you know what was in it?

VON STEENGRACHT: No.

COL. AMEN: “Question: ‘Did you receive from the Vatican a communication dated 2 March 1943 calling your attention to a long list of persecutions of bishops and priests, such as imprisonment, shooting, and other interferences with the exercise of religious freedom?’

“Answer: ‘I do not recollect at the moment, but I know that we had protests from the Vatican, that is, we had a whole deskful of protests from the Vatican.’ ”

Does that conform with your recollection?

VON STEENGRACHT: That was, I must unfortunately say again, before my time. I cannot know whether he had a whole drawer full of things.

COL. AMEN: If they had remained in his desk from March until May, then you would know about them; isn’t that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: I? No. I was not Herr Ribbentrop’s servant, who went over his chairs or drawers.

COL. AMEN: So that your testimony is that you knew nothing about any protests from the Vatican other than those which you have already referred to?

VON STEENGRACHT: Apart from those I have mentioned, I know nothing about protests. I emphasize again that during my time in office I accepted them all and answered them all.

COL. AMEN: I will read you further from the interrogation:

“Question: ‘Did you reply to these Papal protests?’

“Answer: ‘I think there were very many we did not reply to—quite a number.’ ”

Does that conform with your recollection?

VON STEENGRACHT: Certainly, that is correct. That was in accordance with the instructions which were originally given.

COL. AMEN: By whom?

VON STEENGRACHT: Hitler’s instructions.

COL. AMEN: To whom?

VON STEENGRACHT: Certainly to Ribbentrop.

COL. AMEN: Those are the instructions which you say that you were violating on the side, is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: Which I did not obey, for otherwise I would not have been allowed to accept the notes from the Vatican in all those cases where the jurisdiction was questioned; nor would I have been allowed to accept, for example, protests from the Swedish Ambassador regarding mistreatment in Norway, which, however, I also accepted.

COL. AMEN: I will continue to read from the interrogation:

“Question: ‘Now, do you mean to say that you did not even read a protest from the Vatican that came to your desk?’

“Answer: ‘It is really true. It is so that the Führer took such a stand in these Vatican matters that from then on they did not come to me any more.’ ”

Does that conform with your recollection?

VON STEENGRACHT: That Ribbentrop did not receive the protests any more? Yes, that is correct, that tallies with what I said, that in all these cases, where we could not accept them, I tried to settle them on my own responsibility, since it was against orders.

COL. AMEN: And in the course of reading these complaints from the Vatican which went unanswered, both you and Ribbentrop learned full details of exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, did you not?

VON STEENGRACHT: There was never anything about that in these notes—the ones I saw—there was never anything about the treatment in them. Instead they were concerned only with complaints asking why the death sentence was ever imposed, or why the clergyman was ever arrested, or similar cases, or the closing of churches or the like.

COL. AMEN: I do not want to take the time of the Tribunal to read to you the documents which are already in evidence. I am referring to Document Numbers 3261-PS, 3262-PS, 3264-PS, 3267-PS, 3268-PS and 3269-PS, but in those documents—I am sorry, sir, 3269 is not in evidence. But in those documents, Witness, are set forth the details of numerous individual and collective cases of just what went on in concentration camps. You say you were not familiar with any of those matters?

VON STEENGRACHT: Mr. Prosecutor, I do not think that I expressed myself in that way. I gave you to understand that everything communicated to me by foreign diplomats I do, of course, know. In other words, if detailed reports were received during my term of office, then of course I know it. I never denied it.

THE PRESIDENT: What you said, Witness, was—at least what I took down and understood you to say was—that nothing was ever mentioned in the notes about the treatment in concentration camps.

VON STEENGRACHT: But I remarked with reference to the previous question, when the question was put generally as to whether I knew about conditions in concentration camps and the ill-treatment, I said that I knew everything that had been reported to me by foreign diplomats, by people of the opposition, and what I could learn from the foreign press. In other words, if these documents contained details during my time in office, then I know that too. But may I ask the date of the documents?

COL. AMEN: There are many documents with many dates, which can be obtained, but we don’t want to take too much of the Tribunal’s time. What I want to find out is whether or not you and Ribbentrop did not know all about the murders, tortures, starvations, and killings that were taking place in the concentration camps, and which were the subject of constant and continuous protests from the Vatican, which Ribbentrop has testified were not even read or acknowledged? Do you understand that, Witness?

VON STEENGRACHT: I understand that. I knew nothing at all of the ill-treatment in concentration camps to the degree and in the bestial way that I have heard about here. I must strongly protest against the suggestion that I had heard things like that through the Vatican at that time. Also, I am convinced that Herr Von Ribbentrop had no idea of the details as we have heard them here and as they have been shown in the films.

COL. AMEN: Isn’t it a fact, Witness, that if you had followed up any of these complaints from the Vatican which Ribbentrop has testified were ignored, you would have found out everything which was going on in the concentration camps to the last detail? “Yes” or “no.”

VON STEENGRACHT: No, that is not correct. I said yesterday already that perhaps the key to it can be found in the speech made by Himmler on 3 October 1943, in which he said that the action against Jews and the matter of concentration camps were to be kept just as secret as the matter of 30 June 1934. And the great majority of the German people will confirm the fact that until a short time ago they could not discover anything at all about these events. If I went to Gruppenführer Müller or other officials I was always told that everything in those concentration camps was functioning beautifully and that there could be no question of ill-treatment. Then I insisted that the foreigners, particularly the Red Cross, inspect a concentration camp, and the Danish Red Cross was taken to the Concentration Camp Theresienstadt. After that inspection took place—this was a camp for Jews—the Danish Minister came to me and told me that contrary to expectation everything had been favorable there. I expressed my astonishment and he told me, “Yes, our people were there, there was a theater there, and their own police force, their own hospital, their own money; the thing is well-run.” I had no reason, therefore, to doubt that it was true. But I myself could get no idea of the true conditions from any German department, since they would certainly have been afraid to tell a member of the Foreign Office anything about it. But I want to emphasize again that we really had no idea of the atrocities and such things.

COL. AMEN: Why in the world should they be afraid to advise the Foreign Office of these atrocities? Had the Foreign Office ever done anything to discourage them?

VON STEENGRACHT: In all matters which were violations of international law we attempted to bring the case to the attention of the Red Cross in one way or another. We did this particularly in all matters relating to prisoners of war and if anything appeared to be wrong we drew the attention of the Swiss Delegate to it, on our own initiative: “Go to this place and see what is going on.” And in this case too, if I had gone to the Swiss and told them in confidence that this and that has occurred in the concentration camps, Switzerland and the Red Cross would probably have interfered, which could ultimately have led to unpleasant measures.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I think we ought to have an adjournment for 10 minutes.

COL. AMEN: I have only a few more questions.

[A recess was taken.]

COL. AMEN: So far as you know, after Ribbentrop had received this deskful of complaints from the Vatican, which he neither read nor acknowledged, did Ribbentrop take any steps or do anything to find out whether those complaints were justified and true, or did he not?

VON STEENGRACHT: Regarding the complaints made before my time, I have no idea.

COL. AMEN: I am asking you about any complaints that were received from the Vatican that ever came to your attention, with particular reference, of course, to the deskful to which Ribbentrop himself has testified. Do you know of any steps that were ever taken by Ribbentrop in connection with complaints received from the Vatican about the atrocities taking place in concentration camps? Please try to answer “yes” or “no.”

VON STEENGRACHT: So far as I recall he submitted complaints of this sort to Hitler, when he had the opportunity, and then waited for Hitler’s order.

COL. AMEN: All right. And when Hitler told him to pay no attention whatsoever to these complaints, he, as usual, did exactly what the Führer told him to do, namely, nothing. Is that correct, so far as you know?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, he obeyed Hitler’s orders.

COL. AMEN: And did nothing?

VON STEENGRACHT: If that is how the order read, he did nothing, yes.

COL. AMEN: Well, didn’t you tell the Tribunal that is what the directive from the Führer was, to pay no attention to these complaints? “Yes” or “no,” please.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: And so, I say, Ribbentrop, as usual, did nothing about any of these complaints after the Führer instructed him to disregard them. Is that right?

VON STEENGRACHT: I could not quite understand that question.

COL. AMEN: I say after Ribbentrop received instructions from the Führer to disregard these complaints from the Vatican, Ribbentrop, as usual, did what he was directed, namely, nothing.

VON STEENGRACHT: I assume so, except for those cases where he nevertheless tried again and then received the same answer. I also know that he once appealed to Himmler and requested on principle that the actions against the Jews should not be carried out; and he proposed that Jewish children and women should, I believe, be turned over to England and America.

COL. AMEN: And you also know what reply he received to that suggestion, don’t you?

VON STEENGRACHT: I do not know the answer.

COL. AMEN: Well, you are certainly familiar with the fact that no such thing was ever done, are you not?

VON STEENGRACHT: That it was never carried out? I did not understand the question.

COL. AMEN: The suggestion which you claim that Ribbentrop made to Himmler. That suggestion was never carried out, was it?

VON STEENGRACHT: I do not understand; in what way not carried out? So far as I know—Ribbentrop appealed directly to the foreign countries at that time. I also do not know what answer he received at that time, at least not in detail.

COL. AMEN: Well, so far as you know, nothing ever came of that suggestion, correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: No, nothing came of it.

COL. AMEN: And, as a matter of fact, you know that Ribbentrop and Himmler were not on good terms anyway, do you not?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: That was a matter of common knowledge to everybody, wasn’t it?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, the enmity became greater in the course of time.

COL. AMEN: So far as you know, did Ribbentrop take bromides every day?

VON STEENGRACHT: That I do not know. He...

COL. AMEN: You never saw him taking any?

VON STEENGRACHT: It could be; I do not know.

COL. AMEN: Well, did you ever see him taking any, or did he ever tell that he was taking them?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I remember now that he took some sort of red substance but I did not pay particular attention to it.

THE PRESIDENT: Do we have anything to do with whether he took bromides?

COL. AMEN: Yes, your Lordship, we will, because in his interrogations he claims that his memory as to many of these events has been obscured or removed by the over-use of such medicine.

THE PRESIDENT: All right.

COL. AMEN: Now, Witness, were you incarcerated at one time at a place known as “Ash Can”?

VON STEENGRACHT: In a refuse can?

COL. AMEN: Outside of Luxembourg.

VON STEENGRACHT: In a refuse can? I cannot remember it.

COL. AMEN: Near Luxembourg.

VON STEENGRACHT: Locked in a refuse can? No, I do not remember.

COL. AMEN: After you were taken prisoner, where were you incarcerated?

VON STEENGRACHT: Mondorf.

COL. AMEN: For how long a period of time?

VON STEENGRACHT: In Mondorf altogether 11 weeks.

COL. AMEN: And at that time were numerous of the defendants in this case also incarcerated there?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: And while you were there you were free to have conversations with some of the inmates?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

COL. AMEN: And you did, from time to time, have such conversations? Right?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. I was not together with them all the time, because I was transferred to another camp.

COL. AMEN: Now, in the course of your conversations with one or another of the inmates there, did you make the statement which I am about to read to you, either in exact words or in substance? Do you understand the question? “Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him.” Please answer “yes” or “no.” Did you say that, Witness, did you say that?

VON STEENGRACHT: I should be grateful if I could hear that exactly again what I am supposed to have said.

COL. AMEN: Now remember, I am asking you whether you said it either in the exact words or in substance. Do you understand that?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not precisely understand the German translation of your question.

COL. AMEN: Do you now understand it?

VON STEENGRACHT: I do not understand. I did not exactly understand the German translation.

COL. AMEN: Yes, but do you understand my question, namely, that you are to say, whether you used these exact words or some other similar words? I will now read it to you again. Do you understand?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, I would be grateful.

COL. AMEN: “Ribbentrop is lacking in any notion of decency and truth. The conception does not exist for him.”

VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot recall that I ever made such a statement. I would have to know to whom I am supposed to have said it.

COL. AMEN: Do you deny having made that statement, or is it simply that you can’t remember whether you did or not?

VON STEENGRACHT: I cannot remember having said that.

COL. AMEN: Is it possible that you did?

VON STEENGRACHT: It could be that I made such a statement, in some connection.

COL. AMEN: Very good.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the other prosecutors wish to ask any questions?

MAJOR GENERAL N. D. ZORYA (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): To save time, I shall restrict myself to a few questions only. Insofar as I can understand the translation of your testimony, which you submitted yesterday, you testified to the fact that besides the Ministry for Foreign Affairs many individuals and organizations had influenced Germany’s foreign policy.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: Tell me, which of the defendants in the present Trial whom you see in the dock attempted to influence and did, to a certain extent, influence Germany’s foreign policy.

VON STEENGRACHT: Foreign policy was, of course, after the beginning of the war...

GEN. ZORYA: I must ask you here and now not to make any declaration on Germany’s foreign policy, but to indicate precisely, in the form of a reply to my question, which of the defendants in the present Trial attempted to influence and did influence Germany’s foreign policy?

VON STEENGRACHT: The basic lines of foreign policy were determined solely by Hitler. The fact that we had occupied many countries and in these various countries had occupied the most varied positions...

GEN. ZORYA: We know all about that. I ask you to indicate by name, which of the defendants in the present Trial attempted to influence and did influence Germany’s foreign policy. Is my question clear to you?

VON STEENGRACHT: Foreign policy, as I stated yesterday, was in its broad outlines determined by Hitler alone; but those people who were assigned to special fields naturally exercised some influence in one respect or another. For example, some one who had a special assignment concerning the police, carried out police measures; some one who had to take care of labor problems conducted labor affairs. The same is true of other sectors.

GEN. ZORYA: You still do not answer my question. I ask you to indicate, regardless of the form and extent of his influence, which of the defendants in the current Trial attempted to influence, and did influence, in one form or another, Germany’s foreign policy, and this apart from representatives of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs.

VON STEENGRACHT: I assume that you are asking this question in relation to Russia; as the Foreign Office no longer had jurisdiction after the entrance of German troops into Russia...

GEN. ZORYA: I request you to understand my question thoroughly and to answer which of the defendants, and in what form, regardless of concrete facts of foreign policy, attempted to influence this foreign policy of Germany and did, in effect, so influence it.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes. As regards Russia, the Eastern ministry was competent for these questions.

GEN. ZORYA: No, not as regards Russia.

VON STEENGRACHT: In Norway Terboven laid down the policy. Quite naturally he influenced Hitler in his attitude toward Norway and Norwegian problems. In the same way the individual chiefs of the administrations in the individual countries exerted influence depending on how close they could come to Hitler with their reports.

THE PRESIDENT: We don’t want you to make speeches; we want you to answer the question. You weren’t asked who influenced the foreign policy, but which of the defendants influenced foreign policy. You may say none, or you may say some. It is a question that you must be able to answer.

VON STEENGRACHT: I would assume that Rosenberg had something to say regarding Russia, Frank had something to say regarding Poland, Seyss-Inquart had something to say regarding Holland. Other matters touched only special sectors. Naturally the SS had something to say; the Wehrmacht had something to say, also the various other offices and they naturally all exerted a certain influence but only a certain influence. However, the basic policy was conducted solely by Hitler.

GEN. ZORYA: Do you not wish in this connection to name the Defendant Göring?

VON STEENGRACHT: Göring carried on the Four Year Plan and in this capacity he naturally also exercised a certain influence on Russia.

GEN. ZORYA: What did this influence consist of?

VON STEENGRACHT: There again I must say that I and the Foreign Office had nothing to do with Russia, and that we were strictly forbidden to intervene in Russian affairs. In the sphere of propaganda and the press we were in no way permitted to become active. For this reason I am especially badly informed on Russian affairs.

GEN. ZORYA: Did the Defendant Göring have any influence in other questions besides the Russian question?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not understand the question in German.

GEN. ZORYA: Besides the Russian question, did the Defendant Göring exercise any influence on other questions in the sphere of foreign policy?

VON STEENGRACHT: I would say that until the year 1938 he certainly had influence over Hitler in matters of foreign policy.

GEN. ZORYA: You have stated in your testimony that in July ’44 the Ministry for Foreign Affairs participated in preparations for the anti-Jewish Congress which, it was assumed, would be held in Kraków. Will you please answer this question briefly, “yes” or “no.”

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: Do you know who were the candidates for honorary membership in this congress?

VON STEENGRACHT: Probably there were many, Ribbentrop among others, as far as I still remember today.

GEN. ZORYA: Who else from among the defendants?

VON STEENGRACHT: I really cannot say. As far as I remember, Rosenberg and a large number of other leading personalities, but I cannot recall their names any longer. Naturally there are documents on the subject, so that it can be ascertained without trouble.

GEN. ZORYA: Did Ribbentrop attempt in any form whatsoever to protest against the inclusion of his name in the roster of honorary members of this congress?

VON STEENGRACHT: So far as I can recall he very unwillingly took over this post, but I do not believe that he really intended to take any active part in this matter.

GEN. ZORYA: If I have understood you correctly, you have recently testified to the fact that relations between Ribbentrop and Himmler were hostile.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, bad relations.

GEN. ZORYA: But can you state whether any contact existed between Ribbentrop and Himmler in their work, whether they maintained this contact in any one particular sphere or branch of their work?

VON STEENGRACHT: As a matter of fact, there was no working contact such as would have been considered right in a well-organized state. Of course, now and then there were matters somewhere that concerned both of these men, and to that extent they did have contact, yes.

GEN. ZORYA: What was the nature of this contact, and what, exactly, did it represent?

VON STEENGRACHT: It really only amounted to this: that Ribbentrop or Himmler saw each other every few months. Besides that, we had a liaison man in the Foreign Office for the Reichsführer SS Himmler.

GEN. ZORYA: Then how does all this fit in with the hostility which, as you have just mentioned, existed between Himmler and Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: I presume you are referring to the second question I answered. In every normal state it was the case that the ministers saw each other at least once a year and exchanged opinions. This, however, did not take place, since, as we have already heard today at some length, the fields of jurisdiction overlapped to a great extent and the activity of one man touched very closely on the activity of the other. Therefore some connection had to be established whether one wanted it or not.

GEN. ZORYA: Do I understand you to say that Himmler and Ribbentrop never even met?

VON STEENGRACHT: They met perhaps once every 3 months. It might have been every 4 months and they usually met only if, by chance, both Ribbentrop and Himmler were visiting Hitler at the same time.

GEN. ZORYA: And there were no special meetings, no business contact between them at all?

VON STEENGRACHT: Actually not.

GEN. ZORYA: I should like you to familiarize yourself with Document Number USSR-120, which has already been submitted as evidence to the Tribunal. You will see that this is an agreement between Himmler and Ribbentrop regarding the organization of intelligence work. Are you familiar with this agreement?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes, certainly.

GEN. ZORYA: The contact between Himmler and Ribbentrop was evidently closer than you wished to describe.

VON STEENGRACHT: I do not believe, Mr. Prosecutor, that I wanted to give you any impression other than the one that actually existed. This refers to Hitler’s order of 12 February 1944. On the basis of this order Himmler took charge of all activity abroad without the participation of the Foreign Office, and after he had become the successor to Canaris, through this order he secured a predominant position abroad. And if the Foreign Office in one way or another had not tried to contact this organization, then the Foreign Office would have had no influence at all even in foreign countries. We had to fight vigorously over this document, for on the basis of this document Himmler was obliged for the first time to communicate to us also the information that he brought to Germany. Otherwise he brought these reports in without telling us about them. That was the reason why we reached this working agreement. But so far as I recall, it was not put into practice at all, because Hitler’s order was issued on 12 February 1944 and we had not come to an agreement until February 1945. Then it gradually came about. That must be approximately the date. At any rate it took quite a while.

GEN. ZORYA: You say that this agreement never became valid?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not say that. An agreement becomes effective at the moment in which it is signed. But it was not put into practice or hardly put into practice.

GEN. ZORYA: I think we shall have to content ourselves with your reply and pass over to some other questions. Did you ever come in contact with Kaltenbrunner?

VON STEENGRACHT: Did I come into contact with Kaltenbrunner? Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: On what questions?

VON STEENGRACHT: On precisely those questions which, for example, the Nuncio addressed to me and also about people who because of the Nacht und Nebel decree had been deported from abroad and about whom we were not allowed to give information, I often went privately to Kaltenbrunner and pointed out to him that this order was inhuman. As a favor Kaltenbrunner then frequently gave me information; and I, contrary to the orders, transmitted this information abroad because I considered it justified for humanity’s sake. Those were the main points of contact which I had with Kaltenbrunner.

GEN. ZORYA: Did you, in particular, have any conversation with him on the subject of the Danish policemen interned by the Gestapo in a concentration camp without any concrete charges presented against them? Please reply to this question by saying “yes” or “no.”

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: During one interrogation, an interrogation conducted by an American interrogator, you stated that, although these policemen were eventually sent back to Denmark, they were very badly treated.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: What did this ill-treatment consist of?

VON STEENGRACHT: I learned at that time, I believe through the Danish Minister, that 1600 Danish policemen...

GEN. ZORYA: I must ask you to be brief. Of what did the ill-treatment consist which was meted out to the Danish policemen who were interned in a concentration camp without any concrete charges being presented against them?

VON STEENGRACHT: These policemen were transported from Denmark. When I learned of it, I went to Kaltenbrunner on the same day and asked him under all circumstances to treat these people as civilian internees or as prisoners of war.

GEN. ZORYA: I beg your pardon, but you are not answering my question. What did the ill-treatment of the Danish policemen consist of?

VON STEENGRACHT: I assume that you want to know whether Kaltenbrunner is personally responsible for it and to this I would have to tell you the opposite. I am...

THE PRESIDENT: Will you answer the question? It was repeated. You must understand what the question is: What was the bad treatment? Either you know or you do not know. If you know, you can say so.

VON STEENGRACHT: So far as I can remember, 10 percent of these prisoners died.

GEN. ZORYA: Is that all you can say in reply to the question?

VON STEENGRACHT: Regarding details of the ill-treatment I was informed by Denmark that the men were not allowed to keep their uniforms and had to wear concentration camp clothes, that this concentration camp clothing was too thin and the men frequently died of inflammation of the lungs, also that the food was insufficient. I did not learn any more at the time. They were also flogged.

GEN. ZORYA: Witness, please tell us: Did you ever come across the activities of the Defendant Sauckel?

VON STEENGRACHT: I came into touch with Sauckel’s activities only insofar as we objected that so many people from abroad were brought into Germany by force.

GEN. ZORYA: Do you perhaps remember a conference at which both you and Sauckel were present? You have already mentioned this fact in the course of your interrogation prior to the opening of the current Trial.

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

GEN. ZORYA: Do you perhaps remember you testified in the course of this interrogation: “But the measures adopted for recruiting people in Russia and similar countries are beyond description.”

VON STEENGRACHT: In the session—I did not understand the question.

GEN. ZORYA: You stated, during the interrogation of 28 September 1945—I am quoting verbatim: “But the measures adopted for recruiting people in Russia and similar countries are beyond description.” Do you remember your testimony?

VON STEENGRACHT: I confirm that statement.

GEN. ZORYA: Then you confirm it? Will you kindly enumerate, if only in brief, what precisely were the indescribable measures adopted by the Defendant Sauckel in Russia and other countries?

VON STEENGRACHT: I know of only one case that was reported to me at the time. It concerned the fact that in a certain sector, people were invited to a theatrical performance and the theatre was surrounded, and the people who were inside were brought to Germany for forced labor. It concerns these measures of which I have heard.

GEN. ZORYA: I have no further questions to ask.

COL. POKROVSKY: I request permission to ask one more question, or rather, to have one more question elucidated.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, the Tribunal has already indicated that it wishes the cross-examination to be cut down as far as possible, and it really cannot hear more than one counsel on behalf of each of the four countries. It doesn’t wish to hear more than one on behalf of each of the four countries. I am afraid we can’t hear any further cross-examination from you.

COL. POKROVSKY: The question is not a new one. The witness has not answered a question which was repeated four times.

THE PRESIDENT: It is a new counsel though.

COL. POKROVSKY: No. The Soviet Prosecutor asked which of the defendants influenced the foreign policy of Germany. The witness replied, “The Armed Forces.” I wished to...

THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Colonel Pokrovsky, but I have given you the Tribunal’s ruling. We cannot hear more than one counsel. I hope, as I say, that the prosecutors will make their examination as short as possible.

M. EDGAR FAURE (Deputy Chief Prosecutor for the French Republic): This witness having been already interrogated at considerable length, I wish to ask only a very short question.

Witness, I should like you to confirm precisely what you have already declared, that the German Embassy in Paris was under the authority of Ribbentrop and was responsible only to him; is that correct?

VON STEENGRACHT: I did not understand that question in German.

M. FAURE: Is it correct from your declaration, and from what you know, that the German Embassy in Paris was under the authority of Ribbentrop and that it was responsible only to him?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

M. FAURE: Does it mean that every important measure taken by the Embassy would have to be known by the Defendant Ribbentrop?

VON STEENGRACHT: Yes.

M. FAURE: I simply wanted to have this point elucidated in view of the interrogatory of the witness, and I have no further questions to ask.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn until 2 o’clock.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

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