Mr. Farmer: That's all right, Mr. Banker, as a statement of principles, and I think it is perfectly clear to me just what you mean; but there is one point that I would like to have settled, and that's this: what is a reserve in the United States? That is, what can you call a reserve? You know I am a director of our little bank down in the village below. The other day I asked them what they held for reserves and the cashier brought out this list; $3,000 silver certificates; $3,500 of United States notes, or greenbacks; $4,500 National bank notes; $2,500 gold certificates; $1,500 gold coin; and some silver change. As quick as I saw that bunch of stuff, I said to myself, just what you pounded into me some nights ago, that those bank notes ought never to be held as reserves, because they were nothing but another bank's debts, nothing but another bank's I.O.U.'s. Do you know that idea never penetrated my cranium until that very minute. Now, that is an absolute absurdity, that one bank's debts should be used as another bank's reserves. Just imagine what a high old time we would have, if the banks went around the country exchanging their debts with each other for the purpose of creating reserves. The sky would be the limit. Just think of it; where would it stop?
Mr. Banker: Well, Mr. Farmer, that is precisely what the bankers of this country are doing. I know of one National banker who took $3,000,000 of his own bank notes, and put them into the reserves of a Trust Co., and all the stock of the Trust Co. was owned by his bank, and was locked up in the safe of the bank. I know another National bank that got a large Trust Co. to bury $3,500,000 of its notes down at the bottom of its reserves, so that they could not get out; and this is a fair sample of just what is going on all over this country today. This is done just to keep their notes out, so that they can make the extra 1 per cent or 1¼ on the notes in circulation, as we call it. Some one of you may say, well! these notes are secured by Government bonds. Yes, suppose they are, what of it? Congress has just passed a law providing for $500,000,000 more just like these present National Bank Notes, which are to be secured by State Bonds, Municipal Bonds, Railroad Bonds and Promissory Notes and what not, and the boast of that wonderful economist Aldrich was that you could not tell them apart. Any fraud, apparently, would suit him, so long as no one found it out. Now, I assert, and challenge any man to deny it, that if any good debt is fit to be used for reserve money, then every good debt is equally fit. If a Government debt is good reserve money, then New York State debts, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and all state debts; and if all state debts, then New York city, Philadelphia, Chicago and all city debts; and if New York, Chicago and Philadelphia debts are good reserve money, then the United States Steel, Standard Oil and all corporation debts; and if all corporation debts are good reserves, then the debts of J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie and all private debts are good reserves. When you stop to think of it, what a preposterous proposition it is to make any debt a reserve for another debt. The State of California has just waked up, and will not permit her state banks to hold a National Bank Note as reserve; but the great State of New York specifically provides that her banks may hold National Bank Notes as reserves.
Mr. Merchant: I must confess that I never knew that before; such a scheme as that is perfectly rotten, and it seems to me as though something ought to be done to correct so obvious an evil. Why, gentlemen, these men who are using bank notes as reserves, must have known that they were driving just that much gold out of the country, and weakening the basis of credit to just that extent.
Mr. Banker: I don't know whether they know enough to know that or not, and I don't know whether it would have made any difference with them if they did. When a man's cupidity and greed make a slave of him, they drive all patriotism out of his soul, just as debts, promises to pay, or wind money drives the gold out of the country.
Mr. Manufacturer: This scheme of banks exchanging their promissory notes or their debts for the purpose of making reserves is a new one to me, too. But, if any one thing can be much worse than another, it must be this scheme.
Gentlemen, a true reserve must be the measure and touchstone of credit, therefore a reserve cannot be a credit itself nor a debt created by granting credit. Now, what is the thing by which we are measuring the value of all credit? Indeed, the thing by which we are measuring the value of everything? It is gold, is it not? Then certainly gold is the only thing that ought to be considered as a reserve.
Mr. Banker: Right you are, Mr. Manufacturer, no greater economic truth was ever uttered, or better said, than you have just put this one. In support of that, I want to read something just written by Joseph T. Talbert, Vice-President of one of our greatest banks. It is this: "What is a Bank Note? It is the available gold behind a Bank Note that gives it value. Substitution of any form of credit paper, the greenback, for instance, is a substitution of a deferred promise of a thing, for the thing itself. A statute which forces such notes upon the people as a legal tender, works a fraud and vitiates all reason in regard to money and banking. It perverts the moral sense of right and justice."
Mr. Farmer: There is no doubt whatever that all the true reserves that that little country bank really had, was only the gold and gold certificates amounting to $4,000 out of the total of $14,250, the rest being only a substitution of some form of credit which must itself be redeemed by gold which is certainly the only redeemer. We settled that a long time ago, but it never came home to me until right now. This thing is growing on me so rapidly that I shall soon be a real, unregenerate Gold Bug. I guess I am that now. But, how plain and self-evident that truth is when we get close to it. We are living and teaching a gigantic economic fraud, an economic lie.
Mr. Banker: Some reference may have already been made to this fact; however, it will do no harm to repeat it right here because of its force and great importance. Under the English Bank Act of 1844, permission was given to count silver as one-quarter or 25 per cent of the reserves of the Bank of England; but it has never done so, since it is regarded as an economic falsehood. The reason is obvious. If the bank today held $50,000,000 of silver and $150,000,000 of gold, the gold would not only have to carry the $50,000,000 of silver, which is nothing but another form of credit money, because actually worth only 50 cents on the dollar in bullion, but the gold would also have to carry $150,000,000 additional; that is, all the credit based upon this $50,000,000 of silver, a condition that is wholly misleading; for the silver instead of being a reserve at all, as it seems, or pretends to be, would actually be, so to speak, a bundle of dynamite under the whole structure of English credit.