Then you do not think there is, at present, a sufficient protection of the road revenue of the kingdom against dishonest or ignorant practices?—I think the road revenue is less protected than any other part of the public expenditure; and, though it is very large, it may be considered, I think, almost unprotected, under the present system of law.
Have you any loose guess in your own mind, as to the extent of the revenue throughout the kingdom, raised for the purpose of maintaining roads?—I have been led to guess a million and a quarter a year, as the toll revenue; from the circumstance of there being five-and-twenty thousand miles of turnpike road in England and Wales.
That is an increasing revenue?—It is certainly increasing very much; I think the revenue has been increased by the increase of travelling, and particularly stage-coaches.
Has not it been the practice to augment the tolls considerably in all recent turnpike acts?—In the three sessions of parliament preceding the present, I think, there were about ninety petitions to parliament for a renewal of acts, and an increase of their tolls, because they were in a state that they could not pay their debts without the assistance of parliament.
Does not the great expense attending the renewal of acts of parliament, contribute very much to restrain a proper improvement of the roads in the kingdom?—The expense of renewing so many acts of parliament, as is occasioned by the great division of trusts in the country, certainly absorbs a very great sum of the road revenue of the kingdom; because those acts are every one of them renewed every twenty-one years, and frequently circumstances oblige the trustees to come oftener to parliament.
Do you happen to know whether there have been any steps taken by the Post-office, with a view to forming some general arrangement with regard to the roads?—I am not acquainted with any. I have had repeated conversations with lord Chichester, the postmaster-general, and he has asked for all the information I could give his lordship; and, of course, I have given the information pretty much in the manner I have had the honour to do to this Committee; and, I believe, his lordship is satisfied, that the consolidation of trusts would be very useful: and he has used his influence in the county of Sussex to have nine trusts consolidated, for the express purpose of mutual assistance in providing a general surveyor.
Do you know the result?—I gave the result, and a copy of the resolutions of the county, at the last meeting.
Do you know the result as to the expenditure?—Yes, it goes to that as well as to the amendment of the roads.
Supposing any insuperable difficulty to exist in placing the management of the roads of the kingdom under a board of management, do you not consider that very great advantage would arise from consolidating the different trusts round London, and placing them under an unity of superintendence and regulation?—Certainly so; I think that that would be a measure of the greatest use in the world; and I think that no palliative, no other means whatever can be devised to get the London roads improved, except consolidating the trusts under one head, or one set of commissioners, or some body that shall control the whole; consolidating the roads round London, would be the means probably of great amelioration in the system or manner of mending the roads, and that would serve as an example to other parts of the country, and might be the means of extending improvement in the mode of road-making, and would form a sort of school or example to other parts of the country.
Do you think, upon the same principle that you recommend consolidating trusts round London, it would be advisable that powers should be given to consolidate trusts in different parts of the kingdom?—I should think it very advisable that powers were granted by parliament to such trusts as chose to do it, to consolidate themselves into one body for the purpose of having a better superintendence, or for any other purposes of general improvement; but upon considering the matter very fully, I am of opinion that it would be more profitable that the Legislature should give leave to trusts than that they should make it imperative upon them; it will be absolutely necessary, before any such measure could come into effect, that parliament should not only give this leave, but that they should make the proceedings of the general meeting of those trusts legal, which at present they would not be as the law stands; the nine trusts in Sussex, who have now voluntarily associated together, hold what is considered a general meeting of those trusts; but I by no means think that their proceedings are legal, as the law now stands.