Earl Grey then presented seventy-seven other petitions from Lewes, Portsmouth, Daventry, Colnbrook, Gloucester, and other places, which were also ordered to lie on the table.
The Earl of Rosslyn presented twenty-five similar petitions from different places. Ordered to lie on the table.
Lord Erskine stated, that he had two hundred and fifty-five petitions to present on the same important subject. He should make no other prefatory remark, but to say, that they contained the same opinions on that question which he himself maintained on the subject of the Toleration Act. After having read one of the petitions, his Lordship proceeded to present them to the House, when it was a little amusing to see him engaged for more than half an hour, in lifting up his bags full of rolls one after another, and laying them on the table, then drawing them out and announcing the place from whence each came, and the number of signatures affixed. They were from many parts of the south of England, and some of them had an immense number of signatures.
The Marquis of Lansdowne then stated, that he had above 100 different petitions to present to their Lordships on the same subject, and of the same tenor. The first petition he presented, his Lordship stated, was signed by many persons not Protestant dissenters; several of them beneficed clergymen of the established church, who, equally with the Protestant dissenters, deprecated any interference with the Toleration Laws; and was signed by 896 persons. All these petitions were also received, and ordered to lie on the table.
The number of all the petitions received was about 629.
The order of the day was then called for by several Lords, when
Lord Viscount Sidmouth rose, and said, that in moving the second reading of this Bill, he should make no remarks on the number of the petitions which had been presented against it, as he readily supposed that the petitioners sincerely believed what they had expressed with respect to the operation of it. His noble friend (Lord Liverpool) had truly stated, that great misconception and misapprehension had gone forth respecting the Bill, and he must add, great misrepresentation. The various public resolutions were, for the greater part, inapplicable to the real objects of his Bill. When the intelligent mind of his noble friend was not quite free from misconception, he could not wonder at seeing the misapprehensions of others. It seemed to be thought that some change was intended in our Toleration Laws. What was it? The object of the Bill, the clauses of which might be amended in the Committee, was merely to give uniformity to the two Acts on which our system of toleration was founded; its object was not to exclude any class of dissenters, but to comprehend all, according to the spirit and meaning of those Acts. This was the sole purpose of the Bill. He was led to propose it, from information, he had a considerable time since received, of what was and is the prevalent mode of executing those Acts. He lamented to think that the effect of those Bills was, that any persons of depraved morals should be able by taking the oath of allegiance, by making the declaration against popery, and subscribing to certain articles of the church, or declaring himself, under the 19th of the present King, a christian and protestant, and a believer that the Old and New Testaments contained the revealed will of God, to claim his licence, and that his certificate should enable him to preach any where any doctrines he pleased; and that this did, in fact, till 1802, exempt him from many civil and from all military services. At first he could hardly credit that interpretation of the laws. He could state, but that he feared fatiguing their Lordships, informations from many magistrates, of numerous applications at Quarter Sessions, evidently to obtain these exemptions. He had heard of what he confessed was creditable to a sect of Dissenters, wherein they acknowledged these abuses, and expressed their desire to correct them by the expulsion from among them of such unworthy persons; (the Wesleyan connexion was here alluded to.) He had learned with satisfaction, that though the prevalent interpretation of the law was as he had stated, yet with many well-informed and respectable persons it was not so. In Devon, Norfolk, Bucks, and in Suffolk too, he learned that that interpretation was not admitted. Feeling the abuses that were committed, learning the opinions of enlightened men, and the practice of many respectable magistrates on this subject, he had felt it necessary to bring the consideration of it before parliament. He had been encouraged to do so by the opinions of respectable persons, of magistrates, and judges; and he had stated, in June, 1809, that he intended to do nothing but what was with a view to secure the toleration of Protestant dissenters, as well as the support of the church of England, of which he gloried in being a member. By this fair standard he had proceeded, and in his Bill there was nothing to be found inconsistent with it.—He had not contented himself with the authorities he had mentioned, but had sought further information, and even communications with various dissenters. From some of them he had received voluntary communications, and with others he had had conversation; and though many wished he should take no steps in the business, few objected to the measure he proposed. They thought merely, though the measure was innocent, yet that it might excite in other quarters a disposition to introduce into it objectionable clauses. They did not seem, on the whole, to think there was any thing in it materially objectionable. Every class of dissenting preachers, in fact, who had separate congregations, were left by this Bill in the same state as before, with the removal of all sorts of impediments, and the magistrate would know better what was his duty on such subjects. What better mode of attestation could there be than that of several persons of the congregation for those who sought for licences? As to the question of substantial and reputable householders, or householders merely, that was a consideration for the Committee. There was no other regulation but to relieve them from different practices at different Quarter Sessions.
The second point applied to such as had not separate congregations. He did not expect to meet with any difficulty on this subject from the quarter whence it rose. It would be a farce to talk of toleration, he confessed, and at the same time to exclude this class of persons from the rights allowed to other Protestant dissenters, though he must say, that he knew they had often given great pain and vexation to many most excellent and meritorious beneficial clergymen. Yet he must in candour admit, that hundreds and thousands of people would, through our own unpardonable and abominable neglect, be deprived of all moral and religious instructions, were it not for the services of these persons. Millions in this country were indebted to them for their religious instruction. (Hear!) We are not at liberty to withhold[withhold] the only means of moral and religious knowledge. He had not, therefore, excluded such persons, which would have been contrary to indispensible and eternal justice. The third point of his Bill related to probationers. He had on that point, proposed that six persons should sign their belief of the sober and exemplary life, of the capacity, &c.; of the individual. What test could be more moderate? His object was to follow up the principles of the toleration laws, which never meant that any person should assume to himself the privilege of a preacher and teacher, and exercise such important functions, without some attestations.—(Hear!) Any person under the Bill might then be chosen, nay, he might be said even to choose himself, if he procured such attestations. He confessed he did, confidently, but, as he had found, vainly, expect, that he should have had the consent of all the sects and descriptions, who felt what was due to the purity, sanctity, and dignity of religion. All he was apprehensive of was, that some friends to the established church might think the Bill would be inefficient for what was requisite; but he never thought that any Protestant dissenter would consider it inconsistent with the wise and just enactments of the toleration laws. He learned that in the customs of dissenters, probation was requisite for the proof of the gifts necessary for the ministerial office; therefore, he had merely proposed that three dissenting preachers should sign a testimony in the probationer’s favour. In our own church, by our ecclesiastical laws, there were certain probations and attestations to be made. A Deacon must have the testimonials of three clergymen to his life, gifts, &c. His name must also be read three times in church. He did not mean to say that this always prevented improper introductions, but that such were the precautions that were observed by law. Though he had received much information on the subject, no man should be placed by him in an unpleasant situation by his stating his name, though there were noble Lords present who knew what information he had received. From the itinerant Methodists, of whom he did not wish to speak disrespectfully, he had grounds on which he expected their approbation. He had formed his opinions from those of magistrates and respectable gentlemen of various descriptions. Objections had been started at first by his noble friend, for whom he had much respect, (Lord Holland) who seemed to think that any man had a right to take on himself the office of teacher, on making the declarations, &c. and that it was not a question for the Legislature to take up. He would say, that this opinion was utterly inconsistent with the meaning of the Toleration Act. That Act, right or wrong, was a measure of condition. (Hear, hear! from the opposition side.) He never could agree to those broad principles. But in some respects, he thought these laws intolerant; where, for instance, they limited religious doctrines. (Hear, hear!) His noble friend had called the Toleration Act the palladium of religious liberty. What did he admire in it? Its beneficent effects, he had said, in its providing freedom of worship. Could he deny, that it was differently acted upon in different counties? In proportion to his admiration of it, his wish should be to render its operation universal. It was not so at present. There was no case, wherein when the licence had been refused, the party had, at least for many years, resorted to the Court of King’s Bench. He went to another county. Thus, there was a different interpretation in counties bordering upon each other. Let the benefit, therefore, be made universal. If this measure were improper, come at once to the assertion of the broad principle, and try to alter the laws in that way. That broad principle had never existed in any age or in any country.
History, both sacred and profane, shewed the importance that had been always attached to the priesthood, which had never been assumed, but conferred. He was not so read in the sacred writings as he ought to be, and he could touch on them only with great deference. But he had read, “Lay hands suddenly on no man;” and also that persons chosen for such situations should be “of good report.” He could not think of the argument taken from the low condition of those who, in earlier days, received their divine missions, as applicable to present times, and as giving authority to the persons he had alluded to, to lay their claims to divine influence, without any attestation to their character and qualifications. The early ages of the church shewed that purity of character was held indispensible to him who attempted to enter into the solemn offices of the priesthood. His noble friend had said, that no case had been made out. He appealed to their Lordships on that point. He then stated a circumstance that recently happened at Stafford, when the magistrate, certainly not regularly, required the applicant to write his name, but who answered, that he came there not to write, but to make the declaration. He was convinced he had now made out sufficient grounds for the second reading, and for going into a committee. The noble Lord proceeded to state, from a paper he held in his hand, in which the writer mentioned as an instance of the laxity with which licenses to preach were granted, that he had heard a person in the neighbourhood of London, who seemed well versed in all the atheistical and deistical arguments on the subject of religion, lecturing to a crowded audience for two hours and an half, and broaching the most irreligious and even blasphemous doctrines. The Bill which he had introduced would naturally check the existence or spreading of such abuses, which could not fail to be lamented by every man who was a friend to the morals or the happiness of all classes of society; and he feared that the broad principle stated on a former night by his noble friend, (Lord Holland) tended to let loose this class of men, whose labours must be so destructive of civilized society. Their Lordships did not do their duty if they thought themselves absolved from attending to the prevention of such abuses. It was their duty to protect the ignorant and unwary from being led astray, and to put them on their guard against such mischievous practices. The noble Lord then alluded to various resolutions that had been published in the newspapers. It had surprised him much to observe one set of these resolutions subscribed by a very respectable gentleman, who was a member of the other House of Parliament, (Mr. W. Smith,) in which the Bill was represented as being designed to abridge religious liberty. He saw with astonishment that such an object was ascribed to the measure, than which nothing could be farther from his thoughts. Upon the whole, he could not help expressing an ardent wish that the Bill should be read a second time, in order that it might go into a committee, were it might undergo a variety of amendments. He himself should propose several alterations in the committee; but if he perceived a strong unwillingness on the part of their Lordships to entertain the Bill, however much he should regret it, he should respectfully acquiesce in their decision. He concluded with moving, that the Bill be now read a second time.
The Archbishop of Canterbury declared his utter abhorrence of every species of religious persecution. Whilst he lamented the errors, as he thought them, of the Protestant dissenters from the church of England, he admitted that they had a full right to the sober and conscientious profession of their own religious opinions. The sacred writings were allowed by all Protestants to be the great standard of religious doctrine, but the interpretation of them was liable to error. Uniformity of religious belief was not to be expected, so variously constituted were the minds of men, and consequently religious coercion was not only absurd and impolitic, but for all good purposes impracticable. As to the present Bill, he should deliver his opinion very shortly. It appeared to him that there were only two objects which it had in view; the first was, to produce uniformity in explaining the Act of Toleration, and the second was to render the class of dissenting ministers more respectable, by the exclusion of those who were unfit for the office. These objects seemed laudable in themselves, and calculated to increase the respectability of the dissenting interest. At the same time the dissenters themselves were the best judges of their own concerns: and as it appeared, from the great number of petitions which loaded the table of the House, that they were hostile to the measure, he thought it would be both unwise and impolitic to press this Bill against their consent. He therefore wished that the noble Lord would withdraw it, and put an end to the alarm which had been excited, even though it might be groundless.