Lord Erskine said, that the evidence which they had had in the multiplicity of petitions which he had the honour to present to them against the present Bill, left no doubt as to the opinion entertained by the Dissenters and Methodists on the subject. But it was to be observed that a small part of the petitions had yet arrived, and that if longer time had been allowed, ten times the present number, which already encumbered their Lordships’ table, and loaded the floor of the House, would have been presented; such was the opinion which the dissenters at large entertained of the measure, and such the anxiety they felt at the appearance of encroachment on any of the privileges which they enjoyed.
The Bill professed to be of a declaratory nature, and only explanatory of the Act of Toleration; but he would contend, that it was repugnant both to the letter and the spirit of the Toleration Act. As to the case of a man teaching blasphemous doctrines, a circumstance to which the noble Lord had adverted as having actually taken place, was not such a person, he would ask, liable to be indicted for a misdemeanour? If a man inculcated sedition or blasphemy from the pulpit, was he not liable to be punished for it? and was not this the case with Winterbotham? There was no occasion for any new law against blasphemy; and therefore, so far there was no occasion for the noble Lord to refer to such an abuse as a ground for the present Bill. His Lordship here made a distinction which is not commonly attended to, and indeed seldom noticed, between the Methodists and other classes of dissenters, by observing that it had ever been their wish to continue members of the established[established] Church, had they not been driven by the Conventicle Act to qualify as dissenters, to avoid the penalties which would have otherwise been levied upon them. That some of them, to this day, have chosen to run the risk of such penalties, rather than qualify as dissenters in opposition to their principles, for they do not dissent from the established Church. And was it wise or just policy to subject this people to the vexatious, and to them, ruinous, operation of a Bill, the principle of which was subversive of the Toleration Act? The noble Lord then spoke in terms of high commendation of the zeal and usefulness of this people, and thought them worthy of encouragement and support, rather than restriction and opposition. He knew that some descriptions of preachers among them asked no exemption from serving in civil offices. If they refused to serve, their certificate would not protect them. The law on this subject was quite clear, and required no explanation. If a man was a religious teacher, and had no other avocation, in that case he had “a local habitation and a name,” he was a pastor and had a flock, from which it was not the meaning of the Toleration Act that he should be abstracted, in order to serve in civil or military offices. But if all this was not the case, then he could claim no such exemption. If the pressure of the times, and the demand for military service, required that such exemption should be narrowed, then do it by a special Act to that effect, and not by narrowing the Act of Toleration. He had formed this opinion after he had been asked by his noble friend to examine these statutes, before he knew that this Bill was to be opposed by the dissenters, and that he should have to present 250 petitions against it, from the societies in and near London, and the neighbouring counties, of the late Rev. John Wesley. But in a few days there would be an immense number from distant parts of the kingdom. He stated that the person just named, the founder of the sect, or numerous body of christians, whose petitions he with pleasure presented to that House, was a man who he had had the honour to be acquainted with; and had heard expound the word of God; whose labours had not been equalled since the days of the Apostles, for general usefulness to his fellow subjects. A man more pious and devoted, more loyal to his King, or more sincerely attached to his country, had never lived. He also spoke in feeling terms of the eminent character of his own sister (the late Lady Ann Erskine.) The Act was a direct repeal of the most important parts of the Toleration Acts, as they had been uniformly explained for one hundred and twenty years; and he believed that no court and no judges in the country would agree in the construction put on them by the noble Lord. Would they suffer a Bill to pass declaring that to be a law which was not law? It was not only necessary to look into the Toleration Act, but into the intolerant Acts that preceded it, and beat down religious liberty. The noble Lord then went into some of these Acts, and concluded with wishing to God that all of them could be buried in oblivion.
After a variety of other arguments against the Bill, he concluded a long but most eloquent and impressive speech, with moving that the second reading should be postponed to that day six months.
Lord Holland, in allusion to the assertion, that the majority of the petitioners probably did not understand the measure against which they petitioned, observed, that the holding such language was singularly unbecoming and offensive. Looking at the immense number who signed the petitions on the table, it was no light libel to stigmatize them with want of understanding on a question that so closely touched their immediate interests. A Right Rev. Prelate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) had said, that the deluge of petitions which overflowed their table, was produced by misapprehension. To follow up the metaphor, it might be said that this deluge was brought down by the flagrant sin of the Bill. Two charges had been casually thrown out against him (Lord Holland:) one, that he pushed the idea of religious liberty to an extent which struck at the Christian religion itself: this he must utterly deny. The other was, that he gave absurd and extravagant praise to the Toleration Act, an Act which had been characterised as abominably intolerant. He would not go into those considerations, but come directly to the Bill. He had before declared his principles, and he saw now no reason to shrink from them. He was an enemy, a most decided, principled, and resolved enemy, to restraints on religious freedom. He was convinced that every man had a natural right to choose his mode of religious teaching, and that no authority had a right to interfere with the choice. A man had as good a right to preach a peculiar doctrine as he had to print it.
In the language of the Right Reverend Prelate, (the Archbishop of Canterbury) the scriptures were a great largess to the world, a mighty and free gift to all mankind; not restrained to the disciples or the discipline of a peculiar church, but given for the benefit of the world. (Hear!) he considered the Toleration Act as the great religious charter; and religious liberty could not subsist unless it was perfect and secure, in the language of Locke, it was equal and impartial, and entire liberty, of which religion and religious men stood in need. The Toleration Act had two parts. One of them was a most generous and liberal concession to the people, and the other was nothing beyond a base and scanty admission of an undoubted right. In one of those parts a crowd of laws were merely done away, which were a shame to the statute book; laws that ought never to have existed. In the other, it was enacted, that on signing certain articles, an immunity from specified inconveniences should be given to dissenting ministers. He was always unwilling that questions of this nature should be stirred. He would not go into the question, but if it pleased the House that the Toleration Act, which had slept for a hundred and fifty years, should be roused once more, he was ready to meet the whole discussion. When the noble Lord (Sidmouth) had given notice of his measures, the House could scarcely have the aspect in which it was afterwards to look upon them. But at every repetition of the notice, something was added. The evil complained of by the noble Lord was more and more seen to be visionary, but the remedy was seen to be more and more violent. One diminished as the other increased. As to the evils which the Bill was to remedy, there was no document before the House to prove that there was any loss of militia service by the privileges of the dissenters. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had established his opinion on some private letters, on which probably that noble Lord placed much reliance. But were those things to be documents, authorising the House to heap disabilities on the whole immense body of dissenters? The part of the Bill which went to force the dissenting ministers to be moral, after the fashion of the noble Lord, was new, and offensive, and tyrannical. This was the distinct meaning of the noble Lord. He would manufacture the dissenting ministers into precisely such men as he would wish to have preaching to himself; but this was not the species of preacher that the dissenters chose. This attempt of measuring the morality of the dissenting minister by the noble Lord’s private conceptions, was totally opposed to the principles of the Toleration Act, and was calculated to be eminently offensive and vexatious. What was the mode of qualification? They must find six substantial and reputable housekeepers to vouch for their morality. And who were those that were to have the power of bringing forward six such housekeepers to speak to character; or who was to deny the dissenters the right of having humble men for their teachers? Suppose five hundred paupers choose to hear religion from a man of their own choosing and of their own class; was it to be said, that the desire was beyond what might be permitted? and yet where was this teacher to find his six substantial and reputable housekeeping vouchers? Or was the argument to be persisted in by those men who were ready to boast of their attachment to religion, and to acknowledge, as one of its glories, that it had risen by the labours of humble men, not merely without dependence on, but in opposition to the wealth, and influence, and power, of the great of this world? Yet it was not enough for the Bill that the dissenting minister should be devout and learned, but that he should be proved so to his congregation. How? by the signature of six substantial and reputable housekeepers? Was his ordeal to end here? No; the judgment of the six housekeepers was to be revised by a country justice, before the dissenting congregation could be secure of the teacher whom they had originally chosen for his fitness. The article on probationers was unjust and absurd. When a vacancy occurred in the dissenting pulpit, a number of candidates usually appeared, who were to give evidence of their qualities, by preaching, before they had or could have obtained an appointment. By the operation of the article now alluded to, those young men would be subjected to the horrid penalties of the Conventicle Act. If this Bill were to pass, they would find 50,000 Methodist teachers applying immediately for licences, for fear of persecution. But though the regular Methodist teachers might not have any thing to fear from a prosecution of that nature, since the wise statute of Anne, yet if this Bill passed, the whole important body of the itinerants would be exposed to peculiar hazards. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had spoken of having had the approbation of many respectable dissenters on the Bill; but he (Lord Holland) had conversed with many on the subject, and he had not found one who did not decidedly disapprove of it entire. The Bill was completely at variance with the original idea thrown out to the House, as he understood it; and he could not doubt that it was at variance with all that he had ever learned to revere as the genuine principles of religious liberty. (Hear! Hear!)
Lord Stanhope said, he did not now rise to oppose the Bill, because it had already got its death blow. He hoped, however, it would be followed up by a measure of a very different nature, (alluding to the repeal of the Conventicle Act). He had never felt more pleasure in his whole parliamentary life, than he had done on this very day; and if any one asked him the reason, he would tell them, it was at the immense heap of petitions that was then strewed upon their floor, and piled upon their table, and all against this most wretched Bill. He liked this, because a kind of silly talk had been going abroad that there was no public. He had always thought otherwise. He had heard it said, that such was the public feeling, that they would not, at the present moment, be affected by any thing which could possibly happen. The petitions now on their Lordship’s table, however, completely gave the lie to this allegation. The event had shewn that there was still a public opinion in this country, and that, when called into action, it could manifest itself speedily, and with effect. He was happy this had occurred. He had never doubted that there was still such a thing as public opinion; and hoped those noble Lords who had hitherto doubted the fact, would now be convinced of their error. And he saw to-day that there was a public, and a public opinion, and a public spirit. He saw it in the multitude of petitions sent up on so short a notice; and he was rejoiced to find it alive, active, and energetic. He would not talk of the Bill; that was dead and gone; and it would be beneath a man of sense to quarrel with the carcase. (A laugh!) The Bill was declaratory as well as active, and it was illegal as well as either. He defied all the Lawyers in the House, and out of the House to prove that this wretched and unfortunate Bill was not illegal. (Hear!)[(Hear!)] He would not condescend to argue every point. It was unnecessary to argue upon what was beyond human help. It was all over with the Bill; its hour was come; the Bill was dead and gone, but he must say something on the subject, however. The noble Lord (Sidmouth) had declared the Conventicle Act to be abominable. He (Lord Stanhope) was one of those who detested that Act which they called the Toleration Act, and for this reason, because it did not go far enough. He hated the name of the Toleration Act. He hated the word Toleration. It was a beggarly, narrow, worthless word; it did not go far enough. He hated toleration, because he loved liberty. (Hear!) There was not a man in that House—not one among the law Lords—not one, perhaps, among the Bishops themselves, that had read so many of our religious statutes as he had; and disgusting, and foolish, and wicked, the most of them were. He had gone through them with a professional man by his side, and with his pen had abstracted and marked off 300 laws about religion from the Statute Book; and he ventured to assert, that they were of such a nature as would make their Lordships disgusted with the Statute Book, and ashamed of their ancestors, who could have enacted them. There was but one good statute that he saw, and that was a model for statutes: it was the wisest on religion that he had ever seen. It was a statute of Edward VI. who might fairly be said to be the first protestant Prince who had ever reigned in this country, for King Henry the eighth, that defender of the faith, could hardly be said to be a real protestant. This statute of Edward VI. abolished the whole set of religious statutes before it. Yes, shoveled them away all at once; it was the best of statutes. (laughing!) For what need had religion of Acts of Parliament? Was not religion capable of standing by itself? (Hear! hear! from Lord Sidmouth.) The noble Lord might say, hear! hear! but was it not true? If the noble Lord did not believe it, he (Lord Stanhope) at least did. Was not America religious? Yet there, there was no established religion—there, there were no tythes. In one particular state, that of Connecticut, he was informed there was a law, that if any man voluntarily gave a bond to a clergyman[clergyman], no suit upon it could be entertained in a court of justice. And for a good reason, because it being the duty of the clergyman to instruct his flock, and to make them good and honest men, if he succeeded in doing so, no such suit would have been necessary: on the other hand, having failed to perform his duty, he could have no right to be rewarded. Oh! if the establishment in this country were never to be paid till they made the people honest, many of them, he was afraid, would go without any reward whatever. All, then, must have a right to choose for themselves in matters of religion and this was not the first time he thought so.
To toleration, as it now existed in this country, he was, as he already said, a decided enemy; but to religious liberty he was a most decided friend, convinced that no restraint should be put on religion, unless in so far as it might seem to endanger the state.
Earl Grey said, though he perceived that his noble friend (Sidmouth) did not mean to press this Bill farther, yet, he could not allow the question to be put without declaring his unchangeable objection both to the details and to the principle of the Bill, to which no modifications could ever reconcile him. The principle of the Bill was restraint—restraint vexatious and uncalled for. That it was a Bill of restraint, even his noble friend (Sidmouth) himself had not denied, or attempted to disguise. He (Earl Grey) was against all restraint. He went along with his noble friend (Lord Holland) in thinking that every man who was impressed with a belief that he had a call to preach, ought to have every liberty allowed him to do so. One inconvenience stated to result from this unlimited liberty had been said to be of a purely civil nature, inasmuch as it afforded facilities to men not actually preachers, but who pretended to be so, to avail themselves of that character, to escape certain obligations imposed on the other subjects of the country, such as serving in the militia, &c. Judging from the papers on the table, he could not see the force or justice of this observation. For the last forty years the number of persons licensed appeared to have been about 11,000. He should take, however, the last twelve years. Dividing them into two equal parts, it appeared that, in the six former years, the number licensed was 1,100, and, in the latter six years, 900, so that the number had diminished, instead of increasing, and the present measure, instead of being thereby more peculiarly called for, had become so much the less necessary.
Lord Sidmouth briefly replied. He took some objection to the legal reasoning on his Bill, and professed himself not dismayed, by the opposition which it met, from bringing forward any future measures on the subject, which he thought suggested by his duty.
The question was then put by the Lord Chancellor, “that the Bill be read a second time this day six months,” and carried without a division: it was therefore entirely lost.