After I had been in prison seven weeks, I was again taken to the Poorte, into a large hall, where were three priests, one of whom was the one of Nyehoof, with whom I have often been; the other was a Friesian. These asked me what I had determined on. I replied that by the help of God I would adhere to the word of the Lord. He said that it was not the word of God, and that I was seduced; he was sorry, because we were both Friesans; “for,” said he, “when one has temporal matters on hand that he does not understand, he seeks advice from those that are wise and knowing in such matters, and suffers himself to be instructed; hence it is necessary that one also suffer himself to be instructed by wise men of the holy Church, in matters from which depends eternal salvation.” Ans. “Whoever rightly instructs me with the word of the Lord, him I will gladly hear; but by your instruction I should be seduced.” They said that I was already seduced; but if I would suffer myself to be instructed by the holy Church, they would pledge their souls for me at the last day. I replied that they should have enough to do with their own souls. But with them it was a settled thing, that I was seduced. So we finally came to infant baptism.
They said that infants were born in original sin. I said: “Christ made us free, and called the children to him, declaring that to such belongs the kingdom of God.” Priest. “Flesh or blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; hence we must be born of water and of the Spirit: therefore it follows that infants must be baptized, if they are to be regenerated and inherit the kingdom of God.” Reytse. “Children are in the grace of God as long as they are in their ignorance, and they are washed through the blood of Christ; hence baptism in their case is vain and to no purpose.” Priest. “How do you understand regeneration?” Reytse. “A man must truly repent and amend his life, with a contrite heart confess his sins before God, that he is sincerely sorry for them, and with confidence call to God for forgiveness, and thus believe in God’s word and submit to it in all obedience; upon such confession he is to receive baptism for the remission of sins; this certainly cannot be done by infants.” Priest. “Nevertheless, infants must be baptized; for the apostles baptized entire households, and there doubtless, were also children.” Reytse. “The house of Stephanus addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints, which no children can do.” (1 Cor. 16:15). They then asserted that first the apostles, and after them the holy fathers, had instituted it, fifteen hundred years ago. I said that the Pope had instituted it, who wanted to improve on Christ.
Then they were mad, and said that I was seduced, and should plunge my soul and body into perdition. I said they might take my life, but my soul I should save unto life eternal. Priest. “What do you think of the holy Roman Church?” Reytse. “I do not believe in it.” Priest. “Do you not believe that the priests can forgive sin?” Reytse. “No; for it is God alone that can forgive sin.” This they wrote down. Priest. “Do you not believe that God’s flesh and blood are in the bread which we break?” Reytse. “No.” Priest. “This is clear enough; for Christ says: ‘Take, eat; this is my body;’ this you cannot contradict.” Reytse. “Christ gave his disciples bread to eat and wine to drink, as the evangelists testify, and not his body, for he still sat there bodily at the table with them. And to his disciples who understood his words carnally, as you do, and murmured at it, he said: ‘The flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.’ John 6:63. His flesh and blood he gave as a redemption for many, and not that his flesh is to be eaten. He is sitting at the right hand of God his almighty Father, and shall not come thence, before he shall judge the quick and the dead; hence he shall not come under your teeth.” Priest. “Nevertheless Paul says: The bread which we break, is it not the body of Christ? and the cup which we bless, is it not the blood of Christ? hence we must believe that God’s flesh and blood are in the holy sacrament.” Reytse. “I have not read of a sacrament, but of the Lord’s Supper; this I indeed want to observe with the church of God, but yours I do not desire.”
They said much more with regard to it, which is too lengthy for me to relate. They esteemed the sacrament so highly, that whenever they name it, they raise their caps, and they looked sharply at me, because I would not show it reverence too. They also asked me whether I did not believe that Christ had received flesh and blood from Mary. I said that Christ came by his divine power out of heaven, was conceived in Mary through the Holy Ghost, and born of her, and took upon him the form of a servant, and became like unto us in all things, except sin, so that he was not born of the blood, nor of the will of the flesh, and did not receive flesh or blood from Mary, which came to pass in such a manner, that Mary at first could not understand it herself, for she asked the angel: How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? The angel answered her: “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:34,35. Against this they did not say much. Priest. “Do you not believe that the saints in heaven are to be honored and worshiped?” Reytse. “I indeed desire to honor the saints, for men are honored; but not to worship them. But I want to worship God alone, for it is written: ‘Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.’ ” Matt. 4:10. Priest. “What do you believe of purgatory?” Reytse. “I have not read that there is a purgatory; where is it written?” Priest. “In the books of the Maccabees.”
He further admonished me, that I should suffer myself to be instructed by the holy Church, which had stood for fifteen hundred years, while our sect had existed only fifty years, for Menno Symons had first introduced it. Reytse. “There were from the beginning of the world two classes of people, a people of God and a people of the devil. But the children of God have always been persecuted and dispersed, so that they have always been in a minority, and sometimes very few in number, so that they had to hide themselves in caves and dens, and as they are not of the world, the world does also not know them; but the ungodly have always been powerful, and have prevailed, and therefore you do not know the children of God, neither did your fathers know them, and you think that they have only now arisen.”
They said that I was seduced; their church had always existed from the beginning. I said: “When we shall appear before the judgment-seat of Christ, it will be found otherwise; then you will say: These are they whom we had in derision: O how they are now numbered among the children of God.” Wisdom 5:3,5. They also told me that I should not concern myself with the Scriptures, but simply go to church, and suffer myself to be instructed there, and not be obstinate, since the Scripture says that every word is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, and hence I was bound to believe them. Reytse. “I believe the word of the Lord far more than your testimony; I do not want to depart from it, and hope by the help of God to live and die for it, because Christ says: ‘Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.’ ” Matthew 10:32.
We had many other words, which it would take too long to relate. They approached me so with sophistry, that if the Lord had not been on my side, I would have had to succumb; so that I may well say: The Lord is my helper, of whom shall I be afraid? Ps. 56:11.
After I had been in prison nine weeks, I was again conducted to the Poorte, where were two priests and the bishop’s commissary; one was the priest of Nyehoof, the other was from the country. When I came to them, I uncovered my head, and greeted them. They first asked me on what I had determined, whether I would not amend. I said: “Yes, as much as is in my ability.” They then produced a letter, which contained the articles which I had previously confessed; this they read to me and asked whether I would adhere to it. I said: “Yes.” They said, then I was damned, and should plunge soul and body into eternal perdition. Reytse. “How dare you condemn me so dreadfully, whereas judgment belongs to the Lord?” Priest. “You have offended against the Scriptures, and apostatized from the holy Church, which has stood for fifteen hundred years, while your sect has not existed more than forty years; and you have suffered yourself to be rebaptized, whereas you had been baptized before.”
Then we had many words again concerning baptism; his conclusion was, that children which die without baptism are damned forever. Reytse. “And are you not afraid, so dreadfully to condemn the innocent children, when Christ has promised them the kingdom of heaven, so long as they remain in their innocence?” Priest. “No one can enter into the kingdom of heaven, he must first be born of water and of the Spirit; hence children must be baptized, if they are to be saved; the apostles also baptized many households, where certainly there were also children.” Reytse. “So far as the households are concerned, it is written that the house of Stephanas addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints, which is certainly not a work of children. 1 Cor. 16:15. And of the house of Cornelius it is written: That when Cornelius, the centurion of Cesarea, had called together his friends and kinsmen into his house, he said among other things to Peter: Thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. And while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:33,44–47. From this you can easily perceive, if you are not entirely struck with blindness, that this is not spoken of children. Again, Paul preached the word of God to the jailer and to all that were in his house, and after they were baptized he rejoiced with all those that were in his house, that he had come to believe in God (Acts 16:34), which is above the understanding of children, for to understand the preaching of the word of God, to believe in it, and to rejoice on account of the faith, this is far from children.” Then they said that there were many other writings that testified with regard to it; but I did not want to receive any writings except the New Testament, which Christ sealed with his precious blood. Then they asked me, whether the children of the heathen and the Turks should also be saved. I said: “Yes, as well as your baptized children.” Then they were greatly astonished, and spoke scornfully to me and damned me. One of the priests sat by me, and asked me how I dared speak such words; he knew that I was damned, as well as he knew that I was sitting by him. I laughingly said: “How could you know it better?” And after many words which we had about infant baptism, I finally said that I believed nothing but what I had confessed. They again asked me, whether I did not believe that our Lord is present in the form of bread. I said: “This I do not believe; for he will not come under your teeth.” I asked the priest whether he believed it. Then he held out his finger and said he believed more certainly that God was in the bread, than he believed that that was his finger. And after other words which we had together, they got some clean paper and asked all the articles of me anew: whether I acknowledged the church of the Mennists as a true church, and how long it was since I had been baptized. I said: About four years. And so on, they asked all the articles of me again. I answered them in the same manner as before, and they noted down everything exactly, to deliver it to the lords. Finally, when all the remarks had been concluded, they produced a letter, which was the sentence which the bishop had concluded over me, in which they damned me as an unbelieving, disobedient and obstinate heretic, and delivered me into the hands of the secular judges. Since he had sufficiently admonished me, and I would not let myself be instructed, he, like Pilate, took water and washed his hands, and also thought that he was clear of my blood; hence I had to expect the sentence, and many other words. Then they told me to go.
After I had been in prison twelve weeks, they led me into the castellan’s house, where were the bishop with a councillor, the pastor of Oudenhoof, the pastor of Nyehoof, the pastor of Jorwert, and the bishop’s commissary. After they had taken their seats, they called me, and when I came in I took off my hat and sat as a sheep in the midst of a troop of wolves. They looked at me sharply and earnestly; but the Lord my God, in whom I trust, strengthened me and gave me a bold heart, so that I was fearless before them all. The bishop commenced, and asked me whether I would still continue in the faith. I was silent for a while, for it seemed unnecessary to me to answer that question; but he had so much to say, that I was finally compelled to defend myself; for I had resolved not to dispute any more. Thus I occasionally reproved and contradicted their foolish ignorance, for I was grieved that the truth should be so blasphemed; and that they should not think that I would listen to them. The sum and substance of what they said was, that I was seduced, and that those who had taught me had been seducers, as Menno, who was a vagabond. I said that I did not rely upon Menno, or human doctrine, but only upon the word of God; in this I desire by the help of the Lord to live and to die. We also had many other words, as, of infant baptism. I said: “It is not contained in the Scriptures, that the children are to be baptized; if this had been the will of the Lord, he would doubtless have commanded it: but since there is nothing written concerning it, and neither our Lord Jesus Christ nor his apostles have made mention of it, it is a great presumption, that we poor, vain human creatures want to improve it, whereas it is written, that we are not to add to, or take away from the Lord’s commandments: he that does this, upon him eternal woe is pronounced.” (Deut. 4:2; Prov. 30:6; Revelation 22:18).