Then they said: “Cover your head.” I said: “It is not proper now.” The bailiff asked me: “What is your name!” I replied: “Claes de Praet.” Then said he: “Write this, and born in this city.” The clerk then asked me: “Were you born here?” I replied: “I know nothing to the contrary.” Bailiff. “Where have you been so long, Claes? The last time you were away from home so long?” Claes. “In Emderland.” Bailiff. “What did you do there?” Claes. “I tried to learn whether I could not buy or sell, or do something, by which to earn my bread.” Bailiff. “Yes, and to see the brethren, I well perceive.” Claes. “Yes, Sir Bailiff.” Bailiff. “Yes, Claes, have you received any other baptism than the one you received in your infancy, when you were Christened?” Claes. “I don’t remember so far back.” Bailiff. “Have you received a baptism which you remember?” Claes. “Yes, Sir bailiff.” Bailiff. “How long ago?” Claes. “About four years.” Then they were all greatly astonished. The bailiff asked me once more: “How long did you say?” Then the other judge said: “About four years.” Then the bailiff looked at me very sharply, and asked who they were, that had intercourse with me, and which of my brethren were also baptized. I replied: “It is not our way to ask each other: Where are you from? or where do you live? or what is your name? or what do you do?” Bailiff. “You don’t want to know it?” Claes. “No, Sir Bailiff.” Bailiff. “You do it, so as not to bring any one into trouble?” Claes. “Yes, Sir bailiff; for we well know that our blood is much sought, and the Lord has permitted us to be as wise as serpents.” Pr. 1:11; Matt. 10:16. Then the bailiff snarled at me, and they talked much Latin with each other.
The bailiff then asked: “Where was it that you received your baptism?” Claes. “At Antwerp.” Bailiff.. “Where there?” Claes. “Between St. George’s gate and the Koeper gate.” Bailiff.. “In what house?” Claes. “In a small, new house.” Bailiff.. “What trade was carried on in it?” Claes. “I saw no trade carried on there.” Bailiff.. “Yea, Claes, who was present? there must have been witnesses present to testify that you were a brother?” Claes. “There were three or four persons present who lived in the house, and the one who brought me there.” Bailiff.. “Who was it that brought you there?” Claes. “It was a young man.” Bailiff.. “Where was he from?” Claes. “I did not ask him.” Bailiff.. “How many were baptized with you?” Claes. “Three of us.” Bailiff.. “Where were they from?” Claes. “I did not ask them.” Bailiff.. “What trade did they follow?” Claes. “One was a journeyman mason, it seemed to me.” Bailiff.. “How did he that brought you there know where to find you?” Claes. “He set the day when he would meet me at the Koeper gate.” Bailiff.. “How did you know that the baptizer was in the city?” Claes. “I had made inquiries at different times, while out trafficking, and thus heard that he was there.” Bailiff. “Where did you hear that he was there?” Then said the chief judge: “They know all their people.” Bailiff. “Do they still live in the house where you were baptized, or don’t you know this either?” Claes. “Shortly after they were all driven from the house.” Bailiff. “Then you can’t tell us anything about it, can you?” Claes. “One went to England; another was burnt, and where the rest went to I don’t know.” Bailiff. “What kind of a man was he who baptized you?” Claes. “He appeared to me to be a blameless man.” Bailiff. “Yes, Claes, how do you know that the man that baptized you was blameless?” Then one of the judges said: “He said it appeared to him that he was blameless.”
The chief judge then said: “These people also preach, do they not?” Then the Bailiff. remarked to him: “We used to ask all these questions, but we do it no longer.” And they rang the bell for the jailer to come and take me away. This they put on record.
The clerk asked me what persons from Ghent I had left at Emden. I would give him no answer, because it was not his business to ask. The judges then said to me: “Claes, we will send you men that will teach you the true faith.” Claes. “I trust I have the true faith, and if they will confirm me therein, they will be welcome; but if they want to draw me away from it, I don’t want them.” Then they said, urgently: “Claes, hear them; hear them always.” I then heartily thanked the judges and the Bailiff., since they had been molested with me. The jailer’s servant then told me to go above, and I went. I felt very gloomy, because they had not asked me concerning my faith. Two servants who had stood at the door and listened, came up above to me, and tormented me with many things and said: “Poor fellow, that you are, to give your life for it, and leave your wife and children in want; it is not right for you to break your marriage, since God himself has instituted it” I said: “I do not break my marriage, nor does my wife; but they are to blame for it, who take me from my wife; they may well take heed what they do.” They said I should speak that which they wanted to hear. I replied: “God did not teach me this;” and admonished them, to beware of staining their hands with such blood. I spoke to them earnestly, and they went away, and asked God to grant me my greatest happiness. Then I sat there alone, and Satan came to tempt me, saying within: “Poor man, are you here for the sake of your faith? The lords don’t ask you concerning your faith, but regarding the baptism you received from such and such a man, as you well know.” And he tormented me with all that he could produce, doing his very best to cast me down. Then thought I: “O thou wicked tempter, thou murderer, I well feel that thou art the same that tormented Peter, and of whom he warned us.” 1 Peter 5:8. And I fled to God, and commenced a hymn, singing joyfully, and became glad and happy that I had fought through this storm. James 5:13. I was there about ten weeks.
Then the jailer came, and said: “Claes, come hither; here are two royston crows;” and enjoined me much to think of my wife and children. I said: “I think of them enough; but Christ has said: ‘Whosoever will not forsake father and mother, sister and brother, wife, child, yea, his own life, for my name’s sake, is not worthy of me.’ ” Matthew 10:37; Luke 14:26. He said: “It is true, if one can do it.” He then led me into a room where were two Jacobines. They took off their caps, and I did the same with mine. They bade me good evening, and I them. The one asked me: “What is your name, my friend?” I answered: “Claes,” and said: “What is your name?” He replied: “Brother Peter de Backer,” and told me, that he had been at the chief judge’s, and that the latter had requested that he should come and instruct me in the true faith. I said: “This I have received from God.” Ques. “What is your faith?” Claes. “I believe only in Christ Jesus, that he is the living and true Son of God, and that there is no other salvation either in heaven or on earth.” Ques. “Is there nothing else to be believed? What becomes of the mother, the holy church, in whom we must believe?” Claes. “Do you know which is the holy church?” Ques. “Do you know it, let me hear it?” Claes. “I ask you; for you speak of it?.” Ans. “The same which was it from the time of Christ, and of the apostles, and which the apostles maintained and still maintain.” Claes. “What one is that?” Ans. “The mother, the holy Roman church.” Claes. “Is this the apostolic church?” Ans. “Yes.” Claes. “Did the apostles thus maintain it?” Ans. “Yes, just as we, neither less nor more.” Claes. “Did the apostles read mass?” Ans. “Yes.” Claes. “Where is this written?” Ans. “I will show you;” and he referred me to the Corinthians, where Paul speaks of the supper. 1 Cor. 11:20. I said: “He speaks here of the breaking of bread; but did he read mass as you do?” Ans. “Yes, neither less nor more than we do.” Claes. “Did the apostles persecute and maintain their church with fire and sword, as you do?” Ans. “Yes, they shed blood, betrayed and killed.” Claes. “Peter shed the blood of Malchus, and Judas betrayed; but where did they kill any one?” Ans. “Peter smote Ananias and Sapphira with the sword of his mouth, so that they fell down dead.” And he laughed and held up his finger. Then said I: “It seems to me you belong to those of whom Paul speaks (2 Tim. 3:5), whom we are to flee; for your folly does not remain hid, but becomes manifest before men; for you sit and mock and loiter, and show plainly, that you are men of corrupt minds, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” And I reproved him much. They wanted to prolong the conversation much longer, and question me with regard to baptism, the incarnation of Christ, and other articles of faith; but I had resolved not to dispute with them, without judges being present; but to confess as I confessed above before them. When they perceived that I would hear them no longer, and was on the point of leaving, one of them said: “O Claes, how lamentably you have gone astray; and yet I love you so much; I would that you were of our mind with me, and that I might give my body to be burned. O poor man, I will pray for you, and have others pray for you, when I preach.” Claes. “I don’t want you to pray for me, nor that you have others pray for me; for your prayer is vain, and is not heard by God, so long as you people continue in your wickedness.” Ans. “Perhaps there are one or two in the whole number, that are good.” Claes. “Begone; for you only want to talk.” Then he went away laughing, saying: “I shall have you prayed for, whether you desire it or not, for I like you well; and I will come again.”
About two weeks afterwards, there came two of the same band; the one was a large fat man, who had much talk in him; the other was very fierce and captious in his remarks, and wanted much to engage me in a disputation; but I would not enter into any, only that I put many questions to them, as I had done to the others, and made them expose their wickedness themselves; for very many prisoners had come and stationed themselves back under the window of the room, and behind the door, to listen; which I well knew; hence I asked the more, because the one was so loquacious, which was owing to him having imbibed too much.
Having been confined about seven weeks, I was called down and led into a room, where sat the Dean of Ronse, with his clerk, and another person. The Dean told me to be seated, and I took a seat forward at the table, beside him, whereupon he gave me a long lecture, to which I listened. He said that it was impossible to please God without faith, and that he that did not believe was damned. Finally he asked me: “Why did you allow yourself to be thus seduced, and led into error, and apostatize from the holy church?” I replied: “Since it is written that it is impossible to please God without faith, I was diligent in examining the faith, and asking God to strengthen me in it, through his grace and mercy. This he has done abundantly, and I want to keep it faithfully unto his praise, and not to forsake it on account of any suffering, nor for aught that is in the world.”
Dean. “You think you have the faith, but you have departed from it. And that you people are so bold and of good cheer even unto death, is all owing to the devil, who can transform himself into an angel of light. Hence, when you read the Scriptures, you were instructed by some poor, simple tradesman, who taught you the same according to his reason; therefore you are now deceived. You should have let those teach you, who have received the true doctrine, the ministers of the holy church, that is, the pastors.” Claes. “Are they the ones that have received the true doctrine?” Dean. “Yes.” Claes. “Why, then, do they live the life of devils, as may be seen?” Dean. “What does that concern you? It is written, Matt. 23: ‘Do after their commandments, but not after their works.’ ” Claes. “Are you, then, the scribes and Pharisees, of whom Matthew has written?” Dean. “Yes.” Claes. “Then all the woes come upon you, that follow further on, in said chapter.” Dean. “No, they do not.”
We had much additional discussion yet, with reference to this. He would have liked to engage me in a disputation concerning the articles of faith; but I would not enter into one, confining myself to the asking of such questions. The man was willing in speaking, and very mild, and wanted attention to be given to what he said, and also gave good attention himself. And I thought: “I have heard so long and so much of this man, that he persecutes and troubles the church so greatly; I must see now, how he will prove it with the Scriptures, when I speak with him; for I don’t know that I have ever seen him.”
I asked him, where he found it written, that he should run so bloodthirstily after innocent blood, which no one could accuse of any crime. Dean. “My friend, I don’t run after or seek the blood of any one.” Claes. “You send out your servants for that purpose.” Dean. “I do not, my friend.” Claes. “Do you persecute no one, then?” Dean. “No, my friend.” Claes. “Have you no mandates either, by which you cause it to be done?” Dean. “No, my friend.” Claes. “You have certainly delivered to the law my fellow-brethren who fell into your hands, and remained steadfast in the faith; this has been manifest to all the world.” Dean. “I don’t do this, my friend.” Claes. “Why do you come and sit with the Judges, and have so much to say, if you don’t concern yourself about the matter? One by hearing you talk, would think you had no hand in it.” Dean. “No, my friend;” and he rubbed his hands together. Claes. “Who then does it?” Dean. “The secular, or the lord who has received the sword.”