We had yet much more discussion on this subject, so that he did not know which way to turn. He asked from Deut. 17:12, upon which passage he founded it, that the priests had the authority, etc. I told him that that was under the law of revenge, but that now we were under the law of grace. Exodus 21:23; Rom. 6:14. And I asked him, how he dared do something which the Lord had forbidden, namely, concerning the tares, Matt. 13:30, that both the wheat and the tares should be suffered to grow together. I asked him which of the two I was, that I must certainly be either the wheat or the tares? Dean. “You are the tares.” Claes. “Why don’t you let me grow until the day of harvest?” Dean. “What the lord of the field commanded his servants was for the reason, that they should not spoil the wheat by pulling up the tares. But I can go along the edges, and here and there pluck out a handful or two, yea, sometimes, six, eight, ten, twelve, yea, now and then a hundred or two, without spoiling the wheat.” Claes. “Then you are wiser than the servants of the Lord.” Dean. “I can certainly well do this.” Claes. “When I held with the priests, and walked according to your will, was I a good blade?” Dean. “Yes.” Claes. “Am I now a bad blade?” Dean. “Yes.” Claes. “Well, then, if I am a bad blade, according to your own words, you have yourselves spoiled me, and others, who have gone before, by your plucking, and yet you say that you can do it so well. O you miserable plucker, that you are, when you plucked the four blades of Lier, in the Verle place, five years ago, when you stood on the scaffold, and preached, and the people said: “Antichrist preaches.” It was then that I began to investigate, what faith it was for which those people died so boldly there; and I examined the scripture which you quoted from 2 Tim. 2 and 3. And I found that I had to separate from such a people as is plainly enough spoken of there, with regard to you; and I separated from such a multitude, and do so yet. What becomes now of you and your plucking, poor plucker; the more you pluck, the more you spoil; according to your own words, it were better if you would stop.” And I told him a great deal from the Scriptures, so that he was ashamed, and knew not what to answer.
At last he said: “Those were not my people; it seems to me, that you have searched the Scriptures well; where did you hold your church?” Claes. “Where Christ and his apostles held it, behind hedges, in the woods, in the field, on mountains, on the sea-coast, sometimes in houses, or wherever they found a place.” Luke 6:17; Matt. 5:2; Acts 1:13. Dean. “Christ preached openly (Jn. 18:20); but you people cannot be found, where you are, or who you are.” Claes. “It is certainly a great cross for you, that you cannot find them, nor know them, and that you people are known so well. I hope that God will not permit you to find them; but though you sometimes cut into the branches, I trust that you will not cut off the vine. Christ Jesus, the living Son of God, will keep and feed his branches, so that they may bring forth fruit, although you now do your very best to tear and destroy them.”
We spoke much more yet of the church, and of his people, whom he exalted greatly. I asked him many questions in regard to whether infants that died without baptism were damned. He said: “Yes.” I asked him whether the apostles had read mass and persecuted. And he replied “Yes” to everything, so that it seemed to me that the more I asked him, the more he lied; and I reproved him for the lies in which I found him. He said: “They are not lies, but it is the truth; but you don’t believe what is told you; you remain hardened and unbelieving.” And according to his words, it seemed that the life of the apostles was not a whit different from that of the priests. He said: “As regards your life, your walk or conversation is good towards all men, and you do unto your neighbor as you would have men do unto you, and live in peace, love and unity with one another, which is very good; and you assist each other in need and distress, and lay down your lives for one another, which is also very good, I can say nothing against it; and you expel from your church them that live disorderly, as you expelled Jelis of Aix-la-Chapelle, who led such a life, as I well know; against this I have nothing to say, it is all well done: but of what use is it to your people to have the life, if you have not the faith? it is not able to save you.” I replied: “We have also the faith; but you don’t understand it, or will not understand it; but it will yet be revealed to you, in the last day of the Lord, whom you have served.” And I assailed him very severely.
He rang the bell for the jailer to let him out. The latter came into the room, and the Dean rose to go. I thanked him much that he had come here for my sake. He turned around and said: “I should like to see you suffer yourself to be brought on the right way; but you persist obstinately in your unbelief; you are like your master.” I asked: “Who is my master?” He replied: “The devil.” I assailed him with many Scriptures, in order that he should come no more, and he went away ashamed, because the jailer was present, and other prisoners, who came running to the door. I had asked him for information concerning Jelis, and he could tell me everything, which greatly astonished me.
The third day after this, the jailer came once more for me, and I went down very willingly. He directed me to go into a certain room. When I entered it, there were sitting there the chief Judge with another Judge, and a pastor or priest, who was exceedingly bent upon examining our friends, and very mordacious in his words, so that he could listen to nothing that was said, without interrupting it. But one of the Judges had never been a Judge before, and he constantly forbade him; for he paid very close attention. When I entered the room, I did the lords great reverence, and they did the same to me. 1 Pet. 2:17. I took a seat at the table, and the priest made a lengthy harangue, as had the dean; I kept silent till I was asked. When he had ended his sermon, he asked me: “Why did you suffer yourself to be seduced so miserably from the faith into error?” Claes. “I have not been led into error, but from error into the true Christian faith.” Priest. “What then is your faith; let us hear?” Claes. “I believe that Jesus Christ is the true, living Son of God, and that there is no other salvation either in heaven or on earth, either under it or above it.” Chief Judge. “This we all likewise believe in our church.” The priest laughed, saying: “This I also preach; tell us something else, and speak freely; for Christ said: When you are brought before kings, and princes, and magistrates, fear not what ye shall speak; for it shall be given you in that same hour, of my heavenly Father, what ye shall speak; yea, my spirit shall speak through your mouth. Matt. 10:19. Now, if you have received the Holy Spirit, speak freely through the Holy Spirit.” And the chief Judge sat there and kept nodding his head, and smiling, and saying: “Yes, yes, Claes, yes;” before I could say a single word. The priest continued instantly. “Christ promised his church, that he would be with them unto the end of the world. Matt. 28:20. And I can find none among you that can tell me of a longer existence of your church than about thirty years; for before that it did not exist; or do you know of any books of your people, that are older, then name them to us.” Claes. “Since Christ promised his church, that he should be with her unto the end of the world, I doubt not that he has been the preserver of his body, and is yet, and will be as long as the world will endure, according to his promise, Matt. 28:20; Eph. 5:23. Although she was sometimes extirpated in some countries, through bloodshed and persecution, and through the false doctrine of the Roman Empire, or otherwise; she was therefore not annihilated throughout the world; for the world is great, and she could linger in some corner of the world, and from one to the other, without perishing utterly. And as to your asking me to name to you any books of our church, the Bible is our book, which has reigned in the church from of old.” Priest. “Is it big enough for you people, and have you enough with one?” Claes. “Yes; it is too big yet for us.” The priest laughed and said: “What becomes then of all the books written from the time of the apostles by learned men, who also received the Spirit of God, as well as the apostles? have they all written in vain; as Jerome, Gregory, Augustine, and Ambrose; these were certainly good and virtuous men, were they not?” Claes. “Were these the four pillars upon which your church is founded?” Priest. “Yes.” Claes. “I did not know them, only by hearsay; they were pious scullions, if they founded your church as it yet is as may be seen.” The priest drew back, and said: “Why, why!” I said: “Christ did not thus found his church, neither did Peter, Paul, Stephen, and John; they rather received rods on the back, stones on the head, and the sword in the neck, and so forth.” 2 Cor. 11:25; Acts 7:58; 12:2.
The priest was disconcerted, and said: “Tell us the truth about your church; for no one knows where to find it; if it were good, it would certainly come to the light; you people have neither head nor authority, nor do you know one another; this is a strange thing.” Claes. “Paul teaches us in his epistle to the Ephesians, concerning the true church, which Christ has presented to himself, that it is glorious, holy and without blemish, without spot or wrinkle; that they are baptized together into one Spirit, and into one body, the head of which is Christ, and are joined together as members of his body. These have one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father, of us all, who is through us all, and in us all. This is the true temple of God, in which dwells the Spirit of God. This church Christ has bought and redeemed with his blood.” Eph. 5:27; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:5,6; 1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 1 Pet. 1:19. Priest. “Did not Christ redeem all men, but only these?” Claes. “It is written in divers places, that the unbelieving shall be damned; how then will the death of Christ benefit them? or what will it avail them that Christ died? It is to be feared that they will regret it, that Christ died. But those who have believed in the word of the Lord, and followed it, they are the ones who will inherit the kingdom of heaven, and triumph with the Lord on mount Zion, who have death, devil, hell and the world under their feet, though the world in her frenzy hastens to tear, devour and destroy them. If they were of the world, the world would love them; but because they are not of the world, therefore the world hates them, as Christ said.” John 15:19. Priest. “You people don’t believe that Christ is God and man.” Claes. “I believe that Christ is true God and man.” Priest. “Do you not believe that Christ is man from Mary’s flesh?” Claes. “No; for if he had become man from Mary’s natural flesh and blood, he must have had his beginning with Mary; but it is written that he has neither beginning of days, nor end of life. Heb. 7:3. And the Word would not have become flesh, if he had assumed flesh from Mary; nor would he have come in the flesh, as John declares; but he would have come from the flesh, had he assumed it from Mary. John 1:14; 2 John 7. And it is written: He that confesseth not that Christ is come in the flesh, is that spirit of antichrist. 1 John 4:3. And if he were such a carnal man, he could not have ascended to heaven; for it is written (1 Cor. 15:50) that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Priest. “Still, did not the angel Gabriel say to Mary: Thou shalt conceive and bring forth a son?” Luke 1:31; Is. 7:14. Claes. “Well, understand the word rightly; for he said: Thou shalt conceive, and bring forth; now, what Mary conceived, could not grow from her.” Priest. “What word became flesh?” Claes. “The same word of which John testifies to us, in his first epistle, saying: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; for the life was manifested. 1 John 1:1; John 9:37; 20:27. What else do you want to know?” Priest. “Where did Christ assume his flesh, in heaven, or on earth?” Claes. “That which I cannot prove with Scriptures, I will not say.” Priest. “Don’t you believe anything but what is written?” Claes. “No.” Priest. “You certainly believe that you have a soul; but what do you know as to what your soul is, how large, how long, how wide, or of what color it is?” Claes. “What does that concern me? my salvation does not lie in that.” Priest. “You believe that the dead will rise; but how can any one comprehend that what has perished will rise and become alive?” Claes. “I am well satisfied with the explanation Paul has written,” 1 Cor. 15. Priest. “Do you not believe that Mary is mother and virgin?” Claes. “Yes.” The priest smote his hand upon the table, drew himself up to his full height, and said: “This you cannot prove to me; we find nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures.” Claes. “The prophet Isaiah prophesied that he should be born of a virgin. Is. 7:14. Again, when Gabriel said to Mary: Thou shalt conceive and bring forth a son; Mary answered: “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” Luke 1:31,34. Priest. “Yes, thus you may glean it here and there; but that she remained virgin until her death?” Claes. “This I do not say.” Priest. “That is what I mean. And what do you think of the Supper? do you not believe that when Christ took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, saying: ‘Take, eat; this is my body;’ he gave them his natural flesh and blood?” Claes. “No,” Priest. “Did he not say: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you? And did he not say that this was the true heavenly bread, which came down from heaven?” John 6:53,51. Claes. “The bread of which Christ speaks (John 6), is this the bread which you give the people to eat, namely, which you people call the sacrament?” Priest. “Yea, it is the same which he left us.” Claes. “According to this, then, no one will be damned of all those that eat of it; for Christ said: If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; but now every one comes, whores, knaves, thieves, murderers, of whom it is written that they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.” Gal. 5:21. Priest. “They have sorrow for their sins, before they receive it; and the Lord said: If the sinner sighs over his transgression, I will remember it no more forever.” Ezek. 18:21.
In regard to this we had much discussion; but it is too long to write. At last I asked the priest, whether he believed that when he takes the host into his mouth, he receives Christ’s body, in flesh and blood, as large as he hung on the tree of the cross? Priest. “Yes.” Claes. “When you swallow him, where does he go then?” The priest was highly offended. The chief Judge asked me: “Why could you not be satisfied with your first baptism, but had yourself baptized a second time?” Claes. “I know of but one baptism.” Eph. 4:5. Priest. “Your sponsors well know that you were baptized once; you can ask them.” Claes. “Though I had known that I was baptized, yet I now know that it was done without faith; but it is written (Romans 14:23): Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” Chief Judge. “Your sponsors believed.” Claes. “I do not know that the apostles baptized any one, unless he himself believed, and confessed his faith. But what did I confess when I was baptized in infancy?” Priest. “Ask your sponsors. And what do you think of our father the Pope, and his dominion?” Claes. “The Pope, with all his trumpery, and mass, and all that is therein, is good for nothing, bag and baggage. You priests sell masses to the people, by the dozen, by twenties and thirties at a time; they have neither edge nor point; they neither cut nor stab; and yet you promise the people that they are good and effectual—is this not deception? You preach to the people, that one should not drink to excess, and you go about the streets, as drunk as hogs. You preach that one ought not to be covetous; but where is more covetousness than in the priests and monks? You preach that one ought not to be idle; but where is more idleness than among you? You will rather tramp from door to door with a bag or basket, than work, as may be seen.” The priest was angry, rose, and said: “This is the first thing you teach each other, to reveal the failings of your neighbor.” Claes. “Why should we not apply the knowledge Christ has given us, when he says that the tree shall be known by its fruit.” Priest. “This is to be spiritually understood;” and he went out of the room.
The chief Judge asked me whether I would renounce my second baptism, and all that I had said. I replied: “No, my lords, I will in no wise deny that which was administered to me in the name of the Lord.” Hearing this, the chief Judge arose. Then they rose and began to go out. I then thanked them, that they had been molested with me. The chief Judge turned around, and asked me again, whether I would renounce; or I should see what should result to me from it. Then my heart was enkindled to tell him and the other Judges, that they should take heed what they were doing, and I said: “My lords, renounce I will in no wise, and what will result to me from it, according to the imperial mandate, I well know; but there are two mandates, the one from the supreme King, the other from the mortal Emperor, and these two run counter to each other; the one says that both are to be let grow, the good with the bad; the other that the tares are to be rooted up. Therefore, my lords, I pray you, to warn the other Judges, that they consider what is the best; for you have not received the sword, to punish the innocent.” I told them a great deal, as the Lord gave me utterance. He stood there, with his cap in his hand, as did also the other Judge, and the jailer, and they kept very silent. Finally they prayed God, that he would grant me my greatest happiness, and went away.
Thus I greet the whole church, scattered in every country, with the peace of the Lord; for I now expect from day to day, to offer up my sacrifice. Pray God to keep me steadfast unto the end. I pray daily for you.
Written in bonds.