On Saturday morning, the 8th of January of said year 1558, I was brought into the same room, before the inquisitor, who had lately been appointed here by the King of Spain, with full power from him to bind or to loose, to release or to put to death. When I came before him, I humbly saluted him; he returned my salutation and said to me: “Jacques, I am very glad of one thing, namely, at what the Procurator General has told me, that you are ready to confess your guilt, if it can be proven to you by the Scriptures that you have transgressed the commandment of God; and are in error; are you still of the same intention, and will you accept the Scriptures?” Jac. “Yes; and I am ready to listen to all good instruction according to the word of God.” He had the confession which I had made before the commissary, and asked me: “Will you still confess that you received baptism from Leenaert?” Jac. “My word is not yea and nay, but yea, yea, and as I confessed, so I still confess openly?” Inquisitor. “Was not the baptism which you received in your infancy enough for you, without receiving another?” Jac. “I do not regard the baptism which I received in my infancy as baptism according to the word and ordinance of God.” Inq. “I shall prove it to you; but do you not believe that infants are born in original sin?” Jac. “David indeed says that he was conceived in sin, even as all infants are; but sin is not imputed unto them, since Christ has died to take away sin, as Paul testifies everywhere in his epistles. And as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so grace has abounded through Jesus Christ.” Rom. 5:12,15. Inq. “How are infants purified, if it is not done through baptism?” Jac. “They are purified through the blood of Christ, since he is the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world.” Inq. “How are they purified from original sin?” Jac. “My lord, I have told you, namely, through the blood of the Son of God, who died for us when we were yet enemies, and unbelieving.” Inq. “Do you not believe that infants bear their sin from Adam, till they are purified through baptism.”
Jac. “This must be proven to me by the Scriptures; I believe the word of the prophet, who says: ‘The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; but the soul that sinneth it shall die.’ ” Ezekiel 18:20. Inq. “It is not to be understood thus; but the child is impure until it has received baptism.” Jac. “Are the infants purified through the external sign of the water?” Inq. “No; but they must be purified with water, and then with the Holy Ghost.” Jac. “Which washing precedes; the external or the internal?” Inq. “The external; and after these words: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost have been spoken, they ape purified internally.” Jac. “My lord, you say this without warrant of Scripture; for Christ says that those are hypocrites who first make clean the outside; but that first, that which is within shall be cleansed, and the outside will be clean also. Matthew 23:25,26. Inq. “You err, and do not understand the Scriptures, and have suffered yourself to be deceived by a set of vagabonds.” Jac. “My lord, I rely not upon men; but it has not been given me to understand it differently, and men can not give me the faith; for it is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught of God.’ Is. 54:13. And Jesus Christ says that no man can come to him, except it be given him of the Father. John 6:44. But now, my Lord, prove to me exclusively by the Scriptures, that the baptism of little infants is a planting and ordinance of God, and that it was practiced by the apostles, and I shall believe it.”
Inq. “The ordinance was made by Jesus Christ, when he said: ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ ” John 3:5. Jac. “Christ is not speaking to infants, but to a doctor in the law; nor does he speak of little infants that have just been born; for he says afterwards in the same chapter: ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.’ ” Verses 6–8.
After I had read this in his German testament, printed at Zurich, I said: “My lord, if the external baptism of infants is the new birth, we know whence it comes, for we can see it with our eyes.” Inq. “How do you understand it then?” Jac. “I understand it to be the new birth of him that was in the old Adam, in the body of sin; that we must put him off, and mortify and crucify the body of sin, together with all its lusts and affections, in order to be born again unto newness of life, after the new man Christ Jesus, as Paul testifies at length.” Inq. “This is to be understood with reference to adult persons; but the little infants that are impure, must be cleansed with water, that they may obtain salvation.” Jac. “What do you believe concerning infants that do not receive baptism here, according to the faith which you hold, namely, from the Pope?” Inq. “They all go to the devils.” Jac. “O my lord, it is written: ‘If you Judge, judge righteously.’ And Christ says: ‘With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.’ Matt. 7:2. You condemn innocent infants, notwithstanding Christ says that theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 18:3. Inq. “Those children were baptized or at least had received circumcision, which served them instead of baptism.” Jac. “The Scripture does not state that they were circumcised, and you cannot show whether they were Jewish or gentile children.” Inq. “The inhabitants of Jerusalem and thereabouts in Judea, were all Jews.” Jac. “Luke makes a different statement, saying (Acts 2:5) that at Jerusalem, in Judea, every kind of tongue under heaven was represented.” Inq. “Is it not a sad thing of you people, that you thus err in the Scriptures? Does not Paul say that he [Christ] cleansed his church with the washing of water?” Jac. “Paul says: ‘With the washing of water by the Word.’ Eph. 5:26. Now, then, can you cleanse infants by the Word? or only by the washing of water? for they cannot believe the Word.” Inq. “Then they are damned, since they do not believe.” Jac. “Don’t speak thus; for they are innocent and poor in spirit, and to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:3. He said as before: “First of all they must be purified by water baptism, in order to attain salvation.” Jac. “The apostle Peter clearly declares that as the ark which Noah had made preserved from death and the wrath of God those who had forsaken the company of the wicked and of the world, and had entered into it, so baptism is to us for salvation; but the apostle does not at all esteem the baptism which takes away the filth of the flesh, unless there be a good testimony of a good conscience before God; and I do not believe that infants have the testimony of a good conscience, since they know neither good nor evil.” 1 Peter 3:21.
He made no reply to this, but looked at me sharply, and, after a few moments said: “Is it Calvin who writes: ‘Attestation (that is, testimony) of a good conscience?’ These are the false prophets that deceive you, people; but the genuine text does not read so.” Jac. “I am not imprisoned for the doctrine of Calvin.” I begged him again and again to let me read in his book, how the apostle wrote it, namely, in his own testament which he had before him, or in his Latin Bible, which was of very small size, and translated and printed by Rombertus Stephanus, at Paris. But however I prayed him, he would not let me read; hence I said to him: “My lord, you ought not prevent me from proving the word, since you contradict it.” After additional words he said to me: “Since you will not believe in the holy teachers, such as St. Ambrose and St. Augustine (and a host of other saints whom he named to me), and in the ordinances instituted by the holy church, what then will you believe?” Jac. “I believe only in the ordinance of Christ; or prove to me that the apostles baptized little infants, and I shall believe it.”
He attempted to do this by the households that were baptized, in which, he said, infants might well have been included. I replied that the Scriptures said nothing about there having been any infants there, but that they clearly prove that those households heard and believed the word, as is written of the jailer, and also of Cornelius, the centurion, and all that were of his house, who received the Holy Ghost as well as the apostles; namely, those who heard the word. Acts 16:34; 10:45. Hence, my lord, you cannot prove to me, that there were infants there.” Inq. “I will not insist upon it that there were infants there, or that there were none there, since it admits of doubt; but you must believe what the fathers and the holy doctors have ordained concerning it in the church, and practiced until the present time.” Jac. “Did those teachers institute this ordinance with a good intention; or did they institute it because it was an ordinance of God, contained in the Scriptures?” Inq. “They did it according to the word of God, with a good intention.” Jac. “My lord, you well know how strictly the people of Israel were forbidden to do anything according to their own opinion, but that they were only to do what the Lord commanded them. Deuteronomy 4:2. For Saul was rejected of God, because he had not acted truly according to the word of the Lord which had been commanded him, but had followed his own opinion.” 1 Sam. 15:23.
After many other words, which we had together, he went away from me, saying: “Jacques, I beg you, that you will well consider this matter; for you are in error and deceived.” Jac. “I am neither in error or deceived, and I have already considered the matter: since you cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, hence I do not believe it.” Inq. “Why do you want me to prove it, since you do not believe in the holy teachers of the Catholic church, nor their ordinance.” Jac. “My lord, it is written: ‘Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up.’ ” Matt. 5:13. After many other words he went away, saying to me: “Farewell, Jacques; consider the matter well and pray diligently to God.” I also bade him adieu, and said that I did indeed hope always to call upon the name of the Lord for help. Ps. 116:4.
There were many other words that we had together, which I have not written, because I do not remember them well, and I was seized with an attack of fever. I have forgotten to write his allegations with which he sought to prove that circumcision was a figure of baptism, and hence, it [the latter] had to be used in like manner; whereupon I proved to him by the Scriptures, that circumcision was a figure of the covenant, and signified nothing but that they were included in the covenant, and children to whom belonged the promise. Genesis 17:11. But Paul shows us that he is not a Jew or child of Abraham, who is one outwardly, or according to the flesh of his seed; but he that is one in the heart, as Christ says, that they are Abraham’s children, who do the works of Abraham, though they be Gentiles according to the seed of the flesh. Rom. 2:28,29; John 8:39. And I showed him that baptism signifies the true regeneration, even as Christ showed Nicodemus, and the putting off of the old man, in newness of life, and that hence we had to be regenerated, and not born anew, as they would assert; and that where there was no regeneration, there was no need of a sign, since this were only mocking God. John 3:5; Rom. 6:4. He said to me: “Shall the infants have no part then in this sacrament?” I told him that the sacraments had been left to be used in the holy church, for those who have ears to hear, and hearts to comprehend, and to understand the sacraments; and not for infants. We conversed much more yet on this article, and I showed to him the abuse which they have in their baptism, contrary to the Scriptures, and concerning the baptism of prudent midwives, how that they regard it as good, and yet rebaptize the recipients of it; I therefore told him that they were Anabaptists.
On Monday, the 10th of January of the same year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor, who, after a few words, asked me: “Have you made up your mind with regard to baptism?” Jac. “I have nothing else to say, than what I have told you already: since you cannot prove to me with the Scriptures, that the baptizing of little infants is an ordinance of Christ, I do not believe in it, but hold to the baptism which Jesus Christ ordained, and which he commanded his apostles.” Inq. “This the false prophets have taught you, of whom the Scripture says that they shall come, and who have gone out from us.” Jac. “Such false prophets shall be known by their fruits, says the Lord. And as regards your remark that they went out from you. Paul, when at Miletus, showed to the elders of Ephesus (Acts 20:30), that among them, and out from the flock, there should arise wicked men, teaching perverse things—is it not so, my lord?” Inq. “Yes.” Jac. “Is not, then, my lord, the baptism which you people practice, a perverse and utterly contrary thing, since Christ commanded to baptize those who believed and were instructed and taught. And the apostles baptized only those who received the word; but you people baptize only those that do not believe, and cannot be instructed or taught, nor receive the word, since they are infants: which appears to me utterly contrary, and like putting the cart before the horse.” Inq. “This is because you are in heresy, my child, and do not believe the holy teachers; see how it will go with you. Well then, let us speak of another article.” And having seen and read the confession which I had read before the commissary, as I said before, he asked me: “What do you believe of the eucharist?” Jac. “What is that?” Inq. “Of the sacrament of the altar.” Jac. “Do you mean the Lord’s Supper, or breaking of bread?” Inq. “Yes, it is the same thing, eucharist, sacrament or supper.” Jac. “My lord, it is not the same name; for, see, how the apostles named it: Luke says that they brake bread from house to house, and not the body of Christ.” Acts 2:46. Inq. “That which Luke speaks of there, is the word of God, which they distributed to every one.” Jac. “My lord, so say also David Joris and other heretics, who abolish the breaking of bread. But observe, when Paul was at Troas and they had gathered together in the night, so that a young man fell down from the high loft, Luke says that Paul continued his speech until midnight, so that the young man fell through a window; and when they had come up again, Paul having raised him up, they brake bread and eat it—they did not eat the word; after which Paul talked till break of day, and then departed.” Acts 20:7.
When he heard this he looked at me sharply, and did not know what to say. “Do you not believe,” said he “that when the priest has pronounced the words, our Lord is in the bread, in flesh and blood, just as the Jews had it in their hands, and crucified it?” This question he asked me very many times, and as I did not seek to dispute with him, I said: “My lord, if you can prove it to me by the Scriptures, I will believe it.” He urged me, saying: “Say yes or no, what do you believe of it?” Jac. “That which the Scriptures testify with regard to it.” Inq. “I ask you whether you do not believe that he is in the sacrament, in the flesh and blood, just as he was on the cross?” Perceiving that he became heated, I delayed a little with my answer. Inq. “Well, what do you say?” Jac. “Nothing, my lord.” Inq. “That I hear, but why do you wait so long with answering, yes or no?” Jac. “My lord, it is written: ‘Be swift to hear and slow to speak.’ ” James 1:19. Inq. “Well then, Jacques, say but yes or no; if you believe that he is in the bread, in flesh and blood, say yes.” Jac. “My lord, if I were to say yes to you, how could I prove it to you by the Scriptures, that he is there in flesh and blood, after the priest has pronounced the words? for I have never read it in the Scriptures, and since I could not prove it to you, therefore I will not say that it is so.” Inq. “Then you do not believe it, do I hear, No?” Jac. “I believe nothing further concerning it than what the Scriptures testify, and how should he be in the bread, my lord? since it is written, that he ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of his Father, until he shall have made his enemies his footstool.” Mark 16:19; Inq. “Do you not believe that he is able to sit on the right hand of his Father, and also to be in the bread?” Jac. “I believe that he is the Almighty; but he cannot do contrary to his word: for he must be true, and he is the only truth himself.” John 14:6. Inq. “Will you not believe this Scripture: Take, eat; this is my body, which is given for you? do you not believe then that it is his body?” Jac. “Which do you believe to be his body, that which was delivered and suffered for us, and sat at the table, and spoke, or that which he held in his hand, namely, the bread? was this delivered for us, and did the bread die on the cross for our sins? and did not the bread represent his body?” Inq. “Both.” Jac. “I have never read that there are two Christs, but only one only Son of God.” This I had often told him before. Inq. “These two are but one; and the wine, too, is his blood, after the priest has pronounced the words.” Jac. “Does the wine become his blood, after the word has been spoken, and does it always remain blood, and not wine?” Inq. “After the word has been spoken, the bread is his true flesh, and the wine is the true blood of Christ, and they remain flesh and blood.” Jac. “What then did Christ mean to indicate to his disciples, when he said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine.’ Matt. 26:29, etc. My lord, Christ calls it his blood of the New Testament, and yet he indicates to his apostles, that it is still a fruit of the vine, seeing he still calls it so, after he has said that it is his blood.” Inq. “Where do we find this written?”