I then took his German testament, which he had before him, and read the passage to him. After I had showed and read it to him, he said to me: “You must not govern yourself according to your own understanding, but according to the exposition of the holy teachers, such as St. Augustine, Ambrose, and others of the ancient church.” Jac. “I am well satisfied with St. Paul’s exposition, without seeking for many other expositions.” Inq. “Where has Paul expounded the sacrament of the altar?” Jac. “Paul has expounded and indicated to the Corinthians, what the Lord’s supper and the breaking of the bread is.” Inq. “Show it to me?” I still had his testament, and read to him the tenth chapter of the first epistle to the Corinthians, where Paul says: “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?” Verses 15,16.
I had scarcely read this when he hastily replied: “This is against you, for the apostle there clearly proves that there is flesh and blood in the bread and wine, and that we are partakers of the body of Christ.” Jac. “My lord, if you please, let me read a little further, and you shall see that Paul is not speaking of the body of Christ in flesh and blood, as it hung on the cross; but of his church, which is his body; for when he says that we have communion, and are partakers of the body of Christ, he says: ‘For we being many, are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.’ ” Verse 17. Inq. “The apostle speaks here of another body, namely, of his church.” Jac. “I do not find that Paul makes any distinction between two bodies, but that he speaks of but one body of Christ.” Inq. “What then do you understand by eating his body and drinking his blood?” Jac. “Just what Paul indicates, that it is the communion or partaking of the body of Christ.” Inq. “My child, how deceived you are! do you understand then, that you can by communion be a partaker of the body and blood of Christ, without eating and drinking thereof?” Jac. “My lord, I am not deceived, but my foundation is the word of God.” Inq. “Well then, what do you understand by this communion?” Jac. “The apostle tells us this, when he says, in the same chapter: Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? Verse 18. Behold, my lord, here is the simile by which Paul indicates it to the Corinthians; do you not also understand it so, my lord?” Inq. “Yes.” Jac. “My lord, I do not think that you mean that those who were partakers of the altar, therefore ate the altar, but only the sacrifices which lay on the altar.” Inq. “Do you think that the same obtains with the sacrament?” Jac. “My lord, it seems to me, that when we eat the bread, we thereby signify that we have part in the body of Christ; and yet we eat only the bread, and not Christ, just as Israel did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices, and yet, by eating the sacrifices, indicated that they were partakers of the altar.”
Looking sharply at me, he said: “What an error! and do you not believe that in eating the consecrated bread we eat the body of Christ?” Jac. “Paul does not teach this, neither do I understand it so.” Inq. “Is it not a sad thing of you people, Jacques, that you do not believe the word of God, which says: This is my body; this is my blood; do this in remembrance of me?” Jac. “I believe the word of God; Christ clearly indicated that he should not be there bodily, since he said that it should be done in remembrance of him. Paul also says: ‘As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.’ 1 Cor. 11:26. Hence he is not there bodily, seeing he has not come yet.” Inq. “He is certainly there bodily, according to to the word of Christ, and all the holy teachers expound it so.” Jac. “I think more of Paul singly, than of all the other teachers, and I hold only to Paul’s exposition.” Inq. “You must also believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church.” Jac. “I believe the holy Scriptures, and only the word of God.” Inq. “If you believe the word of God, you must believe that he that (when the bread is consecrated, and the words have been pronounced), receives it bodily, receives the body and blood of Christ, since Christ says so, and he does not lie, but speaks the truth.” Jac. “I know full well that Christ speaks the truth, but we must understand how he speaks when he says: ‘I am the bread which came down from heaven, and the bread that I will give is my flesh’ (John 6:51); do you believe this?” Inq. “No, do you believe it?” Jac. “I shall not tell you, neither do we now dispute about it; but because you say that we must believe as Christ says; behold, when he says: ‘I am the vine and my Father is the husbandman.’ John 15:1. Paul also says that the Rock of which the children of Israel drank was Christ.” 1 Cor. 10:4. Inq. “No, no, all these words are not to be believed thus; they are only types of Christ.” Jac. “So is this expression.” Inq. “But this is a sacrament, which is left us as a memorial of the body of Christ.” Jac. “My lord, behold Israel after the flesh; the lamb which they ate was called the passover and a perpetual memorial, that through the mighty hand of God they had gone out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; and so is also the bread which we break, a memorial of Christ, who has redeemed us from sin and eternal death, delivering us from the bondage of the devil and the enemy.” Inq. “Yes, according to the opinion of your pastors, Calvin and Zuinglius, and like heretics, who have introduced new doctrines; but we have been in this faith over fourteen hundred years; why do you not believe us?” Jac. “My lord, should I believe because of the long time? there were many heretics, such as the Sadducees, Nicolaitans, Gentiles, and many others, who erred much longer yet. Turn to the Scriptures alone, according to the example of the good King Josiah.” 2 Kings 22:11. Inq. “Do you think so my son? No, no.” Jac. “My lord, so did the children say to Jeremiah, when they were out of the way. Jer. 18:18. You also well know how they abused the grace of God, making a golden calf, praising it and saying: ‘This is the god which brought us up and delivered us out of Egypt.’ Ex. 32:4. Thus your people now say of the bread. It is Christ who died for us.”
He became angry, and asked me: “Are we idolaters, because we worship Christ?” Jac. “No, if he is in the bread; but if he is not in it, what else are you?” Inq. “Well then, what do you believe concerning it? say but a word, yes or no.” Jac. “My lord, you have heard that I believe that he sits on the right hand of his Father in heaven.” Inq. “But in the bread?” Jac. “My lord, I have told you that I believe in regard to this according to the testimony of Paul.” Inq. “Then you do not believe, I perceive, that the holy flesh of Christ is eaten as a sacrament?” Jac. “Do all who receive the bread, also receive the body of Christ?” Inq. “Yes, completely, whoever they may be.” Jac. “Does a robber, murderer, rogue, or other person who is full of treachery, deceit and wickedness, and who feels no sorrow or grief for his evil deeds, but does still intend to lead such a wicked life, does such an one receive the body and blood of Christ?” Inq. “Though he were the worst man in the world, yea, even a Turk or heathen, if he came to the sacrament, he would receive the body and blood of Christ, as well as any other person, yea, what is more yet, if he were a beast.” Jac. “How, my lord, could it be possible, that the unbelieving, ungodly and unrighteous, to whom eternal damnation is promised, should receive the body and blood of Christ? It would necessarily follow, contrary to all Scripture, God willing or not, that they would have eternal life, and the beasts as well as we, because the Lord has promised that whosoever eats his flesh, and drinks his blood, has eternal life; and thus the ungodly would have part in the body of Christ and of Belial, in light and in darkness, which is impossible, as Paul says.” John 6:54; 2 Cor. 6:15. Inq. “How? do you not understand what Paul says, that he that eats this body, receives his judgment?” Jac. “Hold on, my lord; do not break the Scriptures, for Paul says: this bread; and not: this body.” 1 Cor. 11:27. Inq. “Well then, whosoever eats of this body, or this bread, and drinks this cup, unworthily, receives damnation to himself.” Jac. “My lord, he that receives his judgment is far from receiving the body of Christ; but it is the sentence of his death that he receives.” Inq. “Well then, you certainly acknowledge these words of Jesus Christ: ‘Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life’ (Jn. 6:54); hence you must certainly believe that we can eat and drink him, as he says.” Jac. “I believe the words of Jesus Christ, but not in the manner the Jews did, who were offended at him, and said: ‘How can this man give us his blood to drink, and his flesh to eat?’ yea, even his disciples.” Inq. “This was because they did not understand it well.” Jac. “This I readily believe; for if they had understood it well, they would not have said it, and his disciples would not have forsaken him because of these words, as they did.” Inq. “Understand well, my son, this was because they understood that his flesh had to be eaten roasted or boiled, like other meat; but he spoke of the sacramental eating; otherwise the eating would not have availed anything. But do you not believe that we eat his flesh sacramentally, which is a sacrament, which he left us under the form of bread and wine, into which he has transformed himself?” Jac. “Then he left behind him things that are good for nothing.” Inq. “How so?” Jac. “For this reason, my lord, when his disciples understood it so grossly, as you and others do, he said to them that the flesh profited nothing, but the Spirit that quickeneth; and my words, said he, are spirit and life (Jn. 6:63); hence, what profit is it, if we eat his flesh?” Inq. “This was because they did not understand it well, as I have already told you.” Jac. “My lord, I indeed believe that if they had understood it well, it would not have been necessary for him to indicate to them that he had allusion to his word.” Inq. “How do you know that he was speaking of his word?” Jac. “My lord, I know that it was of his word, even as it is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, which alone quickens us in God unto eternal life.” Matt. 4:4. Inq. “Behold, how your deceivers have instructed you in their new doctrines.” Jac. “My foundation does not rest upon men, but upon the word of God.” Inq. “Why then will you not believe, like your mother the holy church, that after the words are pronounced, the bread and the wine are changed?” Jac. “My lord, I have already told you that it is because there is nothing of this kind written in the Scriptures, for neither the bread nor the wine which Christ gave were changed.” Inq. “O, certainly it was.” Jac. “My lord, I have proven to you, that he still calls it a fruit of the vine, after the words were spoken.” Inq. “Do you not believe then, Jacques, that Jesus Christ is Almighty? and that he had power to give his disciples his blood to drink?” Jac. “I know, my lord, that he is Almighty, and that he was able to do it; and even if he had done it, my lord, has he promised you, that you people should also perform such a work?” Inq. “But is Jesus Christ not able to leave us this in his sacrament, for a testament?” Jac. “Yes, my lord, had he said so; for he had power over the winds, and the devils, to change water into wine, and to make himself invisible. Matt. 8:26; John 2:9; Luke 4:30. In short, I believe that he is Almighty in all things; but a sinful man does not have this power.” Inq. “Not! if he utters the same words of Christ?” Jac. “The power does not lie in the words: this would be the same as sorcery. And if any one were to say to a sick man: ‘Be thou whole,’ in the same manner in which Christ said it, it would not heal him.” Inq. “Then you do not believe that Christ Jesus is in the bread?” Jac. “My lord, I think you have heard my resolution as to what I believe with regard to it. Christ said that we should do it in remembrance of him: now, if he were present, how could it be done in remembrance of him?” Inq. “O how these villains, Zuinglius and Calvin, have deceived you; those profaners of the sacrament, who pervert all Scripture into the contrary.” Jac. “My faith is not founded upon the doctrine of either Calvin or Zuinglius.” Inq. “Upon what then?” Jac. “Upon the word of God, and the foundation of the apostles.” Inq. “How? you do not believe the word of God.” Jac. “My lord, how should I not believe the word of God? For this same word I am a prisoner, and stand here in chains before you, to bear witness to it.” Inq. “My son, it is for the word of Satan, and not for the word of God.” Jac. “My lord, take care what you say, lest you blaspheme; for I have not quoted the word of Satan for my doctrine and faith, but the pure word of God; but you quote to me the word and exposition of men.” Inq. “It is the word of the holy teachers of the church, whom you reject; behold here the cause of your error.” Jac. “I do not reject them, but I leave them undisturbed; for I find material enough in the word of God, to lay a good foundation, and water of life enough to drink in the pure fountain, without running to the brooks or pools, which are mostly filthy and turpid.” Inq. “Well, this does not bring us any further; it is late already; since you will not believe as our mother the holy church instructs you, take heed and consider the matter well; for you are in such error, that if you die in this state, you will be damned to all the devils, in the depths of hell.” Jac. “My lord, it is written that judgment belongs to God alone; how then do you so presumptuously usurp God’s place? God will judge me.” Inq. “Jacques, this is all clear; for you do not believe, and he that believeth not is damned, says Christ.” Mark 16:16. Jac. “It is written: Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24. If I did not believe it, I would not quote the word of God in my defense.” Inq. “All heretics do this. Well then, pray earnestly to God, that you may return to the holy church.” Jac. “I trust through the grace of God, that I have become a member of the true and holy church, which has been cleansed and purchased with the blood of Jesus Christ.”
Thereupon he arose, and said to me: “Adieu, Jacques, see that you come to a good conclusion; for your time is short; consider the matter well.” I also bade him adieu, and told him that I was ready always to follow that which was best, in what should be proven to me by the holy Scriptures, and nothing else.
We had many other words yet concerning this matter, for about two hours; but I have forgotten them. He listens attentively, and does not easily become heated; we spoke sometimes in Flemish, and sometimes in French; for the most part, however, I spoke in Flemish, because of the listeners whom I heard before the door.
Behold here the two articles in regard to which one is most tormented by them. Every time that he returned to me, he brought some subtle scripture with which to catch me; but, the Lord be praised, I was always victorious. I have been before them full eighteen or twenty times, and were I to write all the discourses which I had with them in regard to these two articles, I should require a ream of paper, so great was the number of unscriptural comparisons and similes which they adduced to me; but I always referred them to the Scriptures. If there be anything in my hymns, which does not accord with this writing, it need surprise no one; for though I were to write never so much, I should not be able to write all that was spoken between us. Thus they tormented me.
On Friday afternoon, the 14th of January 1558, I was again brought before the inquisitor. I appeared before him, and he saluted me cheerfully, for, as much as I could perceive, wine had made him very merry; he brought no books with him. After we had exchanged a few words with each other, he said to me: “Jacques, the reason why I have come here, is simply to learn your decision: for I will no more dispute with you about the articles of faith, such as the mass, confession, indulgences, purgatory, and invocation of the saints, or other ordinances of our mother the holy church.” Jac. “My lord, I am well satisfied; I also do not seek to dispute, but simply to believe what we are bound to believe, as far as the articles of faith are concerned.” Inq. “Yes, we have not much to do with disputing; for Paul says: A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.” Tit. 3:10. Jac. “My lord, how can you reprove me for heresy, seeing you have not yet convicted me of being a heretic.” Inq. “Not? are you not a heretic, since you contradict the Christian faith?” Jac. “I do not contradict the faith, for all my purpose tends to it; but you take one view of the Scriptures, and I another, and no one can judge which is right, and which is wrong, except spiritual men through the Spirit of God.” 1 Cor. 2:15.
He laughingly asked me: “Have you the Spirit of God?” Jac. “My lord, you must not ask me this in jest; for I do not boast of it; nevertheless, I trust through the grace of God, that I am not actuated by the spirit of Satan.” Inq. “Nevertheless, you are deceived and in error, and Paul says that such shall be avoided after the first or second admonition.” Jac. “Since then you regard us as heretics, O that God would give, that you would at least use Paul’s advice, that is shun us, and withdraw from us, and not persecute us unto death, and shed our blood in every corner.” Inq. “Jacques, I do not seek your death, God knows.” Jac. “My lord, my God truly knows it well, and it will be seen in the end.” Inq. “Yes, we only do what we have been charged with and commanded to do.” Jac. “By whom, my lord, by God or by men?” Inq. “We are commanded by God to avoid false prophets.” Jac. “It is indeed true, my lord, that Christ admonishes us to beware of false prophets, but he gives us a sign whereby to know them, namely, like a tree is known by its fruits. What fruits have you seen on us, by which you could judge that we are false prophets?” Inq. “Enough everyday.” Jac. “Wherein?” Inq. “In this that you have a false doctrine, which teaches men amiss, and leads them into damnation.” Jac. “My lord, that our doctrine is false, is merely your opinion; nevertheless, you cannot know that we are false prophets, except by the fruit of the works, by which it may be known whether we are false prophets or not; for Christ says: Ye shall know them by their works (Matt. 7:16); but he does not say, by their faith.” Inq. “You people justify yourselves by your works.” Jac. “No; but it is impossible to gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles, or that a corrupt tree should bring forth good fruit, according to the testimony of the Lord.” Inq. “Well, Jacques, as I told you, I have not come here for the purpose of disputing, but simply to learn your decision.” Jac. “I do not wish to dispute either; but I want to reply to you, that you unjustly accuse us of heresy and deception.” Inq. “Well, let us dismiss that; to what conclusion have you come in regard to your confession? do you still hold to the views which you confessed before the commissary?” Jac. “Yes.” Inq. “Will you not then suffer yourself to be instructed?” Jac. “I seek nothing else, but always to follow that which is best, most righteous and most virtuous, and I am not so obstinate in my faith; if I would know a better way to eternal life, than the one which I now have, I would accept it.” Inq. “Well then, concerning baptism and the sacrament, of which we spoke together, what do you think in regard to it?” Jac. “Only that, my lord, which shall be proven to me by the Scriptures; that shall I believe, and nothing else.” Inq. “Then you do not believe the holy teachers of the Catholic church, do I hear no?” Jac. “I believe only the holy Scriptures.” Inq. “This is the reason why you are in heresy; that you think more of yourself than of the holy teachers.” Jac. “I glory not, save in the cross of Christ; but I will not trust in any man; for it is written: ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.’ ” Jer. 17:5. Inq. “I know that; but you do not believe the word of God either.” Jac. “My lord, do not say this; for it is not so.” Inq. “Not? if our Savior, taking the bread, says: This is my body; and, taking the cup: This is my blood; why then do you not yet believe him? why do you doubt it?” Jac. “My lord, I believe Christ’s words, and do not doubt them.” Inq. “Yes, according to your own opinion, and with a different meaning.” Jac. “My lord, I trust that I do not understand it differently from what the apostles understand it, even as Paul expounds it.” 1 Corinthians 10. Inq. “You say so.”
We had many more words yet about this article, also about baptism, and a little afterwards about purgatory, and the decree, in all for about an hour and a half; whereupon he left me, showing me a very nice and friendly countenance, whether it came from the heart, I do not know.