On the 20th of January of said year, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. He asked me: “To what conclusion have you come in regard to what I laid before you concerning baptism and the sacrament, and what are your views in the matter?” Jac. “I have nothing to tell you than that you have already heard from me.” Inq. “Then, if I hear right, you remain opinionated and obstinate?” Jac. “My lord, I should be sorry to be obstinate against my own conscience; but as you cannot prove to me by the Scriptures that which you believe, namely, that the baptism of infants is an ordinance of God, and an apostolical practice, and also, that the bread and the wine are changed into flesh and blood, when the priest has pronounced the words over the bread, this seems to me sorcery, and I cannot understand it so.” Inq. “You may not doubt that the change takes place through the power of God, for I have sufficiently proven it to you by the Scriptures of God; but you will not believe.” Jac. “My lord, do not say so; for if you had proven it to me by the Scriptures, I should gladly believe it; for all my salvation lies in God’s holy word.” Inq. “I have quoted to you the word of God; but you believe nothing but your fanaticism and opinion.” Jac. “My lord, I beg you not to think this; if I knew better, or understood it differently, I should not wish to resist the word of God against my conscience, being in the state in which I am, namely, imprisoned for my life, in daily expectation of death; or it might well be said that I was the most miserable and unfortunate man that ever lived upon earth, that I should voluntarily and premeditatedly seek pain and suffering here until death, in order to obtain eternal damnation.” Inq. “Yes, my child, take good heed what you do; for if you die in this evil faith and doctrine you have, you are damned to all the devils.” Jac. “O my lord, how dare you speak so? It is written: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; for with what judgment ye judge (says the Lord), ye shall be judged.’ ” Matt. 7:1,2. Inq. “I judge you according to truth.” Jac. “My lord, do not say that; for you know not what you judge.” Inq. “O yes, I do.” And taking up an inkstand, which stood on the table, he said to me: “As sure as I know that I hold this inkstand, so assured am I, that if you continue in this doctrine, and die thus, you will never see the face of God, but will be eternally damned.” Jac. “My lord, do not judge so; for you usurp God’s place, and rob him of his honor; for judgment belongs unto him alone.” Inq. “Do you think that I do not know what I am saying? and that I do not see that you are in error? no heretics shall enter into paradise.” Jac. “My lord, you think that we are in error; but as you people think of us, so we think of you.” Inq. “O it is easy to know through the word of God, who are in error and heresy.” Jac. “True, it is easy to know for those to whom the Lord has given the grace and wisdom. And for this reason I beg you, my lord, not to take it amiss, if I speak somewhat boldly with you, and open my heart to you.” Inq. “No indeed.” Jac. “My lord, as you people think that we are false prophets and deceivers, so we think that you are; as you think that we err, so we think that you err; as you think that we deceive the people, so we think that you deceive them, and upon this we forsake life and all that we have in the world, to show to you people, and to seal with our blood, the faith which we have in God.” Inq. “Nevertheless, this only tends to your damnation.” Jac. “If it tends to our damnation, we are of all men under heaven the most miserable (1 Cor. 15:19); for we are cast out, despised and rejected as abominable before all the world (1 Corinthians 4:9), and flee from place to place, so that we suffer continually in the flesh, and have no rest, and, according to what you say, we are also to suffer after this life: no, no, my lord, we feel quite a different witness and promise through the word of God.” Inq. “This arises from the fact that you are deceived; but it will avail you nothing.” Jac. “Where then is the people who must follow their Master through suffering and affliction to eternal life, as Christ has said that they should be hated for his name’s sake.” Matt. 10:22. Inq. “This was spoken to the apostles only.” Jac. “How comes it then that Paul says that all that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution? 2 Tim. 3:12. And the prophet says that the afflictions of the righteous shall be many, but that the Lord delivers them out of all evil.” Ps. 34:10. Inq. “This means that the devil will always cause them enough temptation and affliction.” Jac. “Paul speaks of persecution, and not of temptation; nor can I conceive that Christ spoke of temptation, when he said: They will scourge you in their synagogues, and persecute you unto death, and will think that they do God service thereby; and ye shall be hated of father and mother, brethren and friends, and some of you they shall put to death.” Matt. 10:17,21; John 16:2. Inq. “Well, this was spoken only to the apostles.” Jac. “Does not Christ speak there of all that believed in his name?” Inq. “He spoke to the apostles only, who should suffer when going about proclaiming the gospel; but that afterwards they should cease to persecute them.” Jac. “How came it that the churches suffered such cruel persecution? and yet they were not all apostles.” Inq. “How so?” Jac. “Even as Luke testifies, Acts 17:13, and Paul 1 Thess. 2:14. Yea, you yourself, my lord, know full well what Eusebius, one of the ancient teachers, writes in the eighth chapter of his fourth book. In writing of the primitive church, in what suffering and contempt they were, does he not say that the people regarded them as robbers, murderers, infanticides, and abominable men, and said that they committed incest with their mothers and sisters, shed human blood in their worship, and sacrificed their children unto idols; they were also considered seditious persons, accursed villians, and enemies of God and every creature, and were charged with many other wickednesses imputed to them by the world, is it not so, my lord? as also the ancient writers Cyprian and Tertullian write.” Inq. “It is so; this is all very true; but it was done by those who had no knowledge of the gospel.” Jac. “I indeed believe that if they had believed the Gospel, they would not have persecuted them, nor uttered such slanders against them; but it has always been so, that even those who boasted of having the word of God persecuted them that sought to fear the Lord, and to serve God with all their heart, even as you see in Israel, those who ought to have confirmed the honor and law of God, put to death the prophets that were sent to them, and those who knew the Lord from a pure heart.” Jer. 18:18. Inq. “For this reason the wicked are always among the good, and the chaff remains with the good grain to the end.”
We had much more conversation yet in regard to this matter; finally he asked me my decision concerning baptism and the sacrament, to which I replied as I had done at other times. He then left me, enjoining me to ask God to give me understanding to return, as he said, to the holy Catholic church.
On the 27th of January of the aforementioned year I was again brought before the same inquisitor. After a few words he asked me to what conclusion I had come with regard to what he had said, namely, with reference to baptism and the sacrament. Thereupon I replied to him as I had done at other times, that I knew nothing better than to adhere to my first confession, seeing I could not find in the Scriptures that which he laid before me, and which he would constrain me to believe. Inq. “Will you then remain obstinate herein, and not believe otherwise?” Jac. “I am not obstinate, but I do not find in the Scriptures that which you say I must believe.” Inq. “Not? do you not find in the Scriptures what you must believe concerning the sacrament?” Jac. “Yes, but not in the manner in which you believe; for I cannot understand it so.” Inq. “The reason is you do not want to understand it.” Jac. “How, my lord, do you mean that I want to resist God against my conscience? in this case I should be worse than an irrational beast.” Inq. “Why then do you not understand it?” Jac. “Because it is not given me to understand it differently; and be not surprised at this, for it is written in the prophets, where the Lord says: ‘They shall all be taught of God.’ ” Is. 54:13. Inq. “Nevertheless, it seems to me, that if I lay it before you with the Scriptures, it is nothing but opinionativeness and obstinacy, if you do not want to believe it.” Jac. “I cannot understand it so; think not that if I understood it differently, I should want to find my pleasure and amusement here in being imprisoned and chained day after day, having forsaken my wife and family, to my great damage, expecting death from day to day, for this were contrary to human nature.” Inq. “Well then, believe only in the word of God as it is written there, and I will be satisfied, namely, that when we eat the bread, we partake of the body of Christ, and when we drink the wine, we have part in his blood, as Paul testifies to the Corinthians.” 1 Cor. 10:16. Jac. “Be satisfied then; I believe as Paul testifies there.” Inq. “Do you believe then that there is a communion of the body of Christ?” Jac. “Yes.” Inq. “Well then, you cannot be a partaker of the body without eating of it; hence you must certainly say that it is the body of Christ which you eat.” Jac. “Paul does not say this.” Inq. “How can you be a partaker of the body without eating of it?” Jac. “How did Israel become partakers of the altar, who did not eat the altar, but only the sacrifices?” 1 Cor. 10:18. Inq. “Ha ha! see how Calvin or Zuinglius has instructed you.” Jac. “I do not hold the doctrine of Calvin or Zuinglius.” Inq. “Whose then, Menno Simon’s?” Jac. “My doctrine and faith are not founded upon men, but upon the word of God.” Inq. “Who then is the head and captain of you people?” Jac. “Christ.” Inq. “But who is it that instructs you here upon earth, who is your teacher?” Jac. “The word of God.”
When I perceived that he did not know to what church I belonged, I did not want to tell or indicate it to him.
Inq. “Nevertheless, you must be instructed herein by some men.” Jac. “We are not founded upon men, but upon the living Rock.” Inq. “Have you then no pastor or bishop?” Jac. “Yes.” Inq. “Who is it?” Jac. “Christ the Son of God.” Inq. “You know very well what I mean; but you do not want to answer; however, have you any adherents of Calvin or Zuinglius? are you opposed to Menno Simon?” Jac. “I believe that there is not much difference between my faith and Menno Simon’s” Inq. “Do you then believe like Menno, that Christ did not assume our flesh in the virgin Mary?” Jac. “My lord, you said that you would not dispute about the matter; have you changed your mind?” Inq. “Well then tell me simply what you believe concerning it.” Jac. “I believe that he is the Son of God in every respect, in flesh and spirit; but as to whence he took his flesh, this I leave in the mystery of God; the apostles did not dispute concerning it.” Inq. “Yes, yes.” We had also many other words yet, which I have not written here.
On Monday, the 1st of February of the same year 1558, I was again brought before the same inquisitor. After we had exchanged a few words, he asked me. “Have you not prayed the Lord for wisdom?” Jac. “Yes, and I need to pray to him daily.” Inq. “How is your conscience at ease?” Jac. “Very well; the Lord be praised for it.” Inq. “What are your views concerning baptism and the sacrament, about which we spoke?” Jac. “I hold the same views which I clearly stated to you before.” Inq. “Will you not believe differently?” Jac. “I would believe differently, were it given me to understand differently; but I will not speak as a hypocrite against my heart and conscience; for it is written that the Spirit of God fleeth all deceit.” Wis. 1:5. Inq. “Then, as I perceive, you have come to a full determination in regard to it.” Jac. “Yes, until I am instructed differently. My lord, do you suppose that these, namely, baptism and the sacrament, are the only objectionable things to me in your church?” Inq. “Well, what else is there objectionable to you?” Jac. “Many of the ordinances and institutions in your church, concerning which I do not find a word in the holy Scriptures.” Inq. “Yet we have no ordinance or institution, which I could not prove to you by the Scriptures.” Jac. “Where is the word mass recorded, or purgatory, or praying for the dead?” Inq. “I will prove it to you, namely, purgatory, and that we must pray for the dead.” Jac. “Where is it written in the holy Scriptures?” Inq. “Will you receive the books of the Maccabees?” Jac. “Yes indeed, for apocryphical books.” Inq. “What does apocryphical mean?” Jac. “The ancients used this name, to indicate that they are not authentic books, from which rules or ordinances may be taken.” Inq. “It is true that the doctors had some difficulty therein, but you may therefore not reject them.” Jac. “Yes, my lord, the reason why I will not receive them, is not only this, that I will not trust in what men have said, but also because I do not find that Christ or his apostles received them, or quoted any testimony from them.” Inq. “Yes, yes, where have you found that Christ or his apostles quoted anything from the books of the Kings?” Jac. “Enough.” Inq. “Where then?” Jac. “My lord, in the first place it is written in Matthew (12:1), that the Pharisees censured Christ, because his disciples plucked the ears of corn on the Sabbath. And Christ answered them: ‘Have ye not read what David did when he was a-hungered and they that were with him; how he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat?’ Hence I say, that since Christ refers them to that which is written in the books of the Kings, he thereby shows that he receives them as authentic”[277] Inq. “Well, do you find anything in the book of Joshua?” Jac. “Yes, my lord.” Inq. “What is that?” Jac. “My lord, you well know that James in his epistle (2:25) adduces a testimony or example from the book of Joshua, namely, the second chapter, when he speaks of Rahab the harlot, who was saved by her works in faith.” Inq. “Then you will not receive the books of the Maccabees, because Christ and his apostles have not quoted any testimony from them?” Jac. “No, and this for the reason, that they contain a doctrine which is contrary to all Scripture, namely, that of sacrificing and praying for the dead.” Deuteronomy 13:1. Inq. “If I would take the trouble, I could prove all our ordinances with the Scriptures, such as mass, confession, image worship, invocation of the saints, and others.” Jac. “I think not, and even if we were agreed, my lord, in every article, I should yet not want to unite with you, unless you should prove to me by the Scriptures that it is Christian-like to shed innocent blood on account of the faith, as you do.” Inq. “This is on account of errors.” Jac. “And even though it were because the Scriptures were understood amiss, yet I do not find in the Scriptures, that we may put any one to death on account of his faith.”
Inq. “O I can soon prove that heretics may be put to death; for it is written that if any heretics or false prophets should arise, they shall be put to death.”
Jac. “Yes, I have read the 13th chapter of Deuteronomy, where it is written that if a false prophet, or other person among them, should arise and teach them to go after other gods, which they had not known, that false prophet should be put to death, and stoned with stones.” Inq. “Well then, see here a testimony that heretics may be put to death.” Jac. “My lord, we are no more under the law, but under the gospel; and even if we were under the law, we would not teach you to go after other gods, but after him who created heaven and earth, and his Son Jesus Christ.” Inq. “You certainly do it by your ordinances.” Jac. “The Israelites were not all allowed to put any one to death because of difference in the use of the ordinances, since they believed in the same God: but all this does not answer our purpose; for what was commanded in the law is not commanded in the gospel of Christ.” Inq. “Not, how so?” Jac. “Because, my lord, in the law it was commanded, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and to love one’s neighbor, and to hate one’s enemy; but through Christ we are commanded quite the contrary, not to resist evil, and to love our enemies.” Matt. 5:38; Lev. 24:20; 19:18. Inq. “True, but he did not command that heretics should not be put to death.” Jac. “What does Christ mean then, when he says that we must not root up the tares which are among the good grain, fearing that in rooting up the tares, we might also pull up the wheat; wherefore he commands, to let both grow until harvest; but the harvest is not come yet.” Mat. 13:29, etc. Inq. “You do not understand this very well; for it is easy to see whether they are tares or wheat.” Jac “Yes, for him that knows the seed.” Inq. “Yes, that is true.” Jac. “My lord, it is written that carnal men know only carnal things; but the things that are spiritual knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.” 1 Cor. 2:11, etc. Inq. “This is very true.” Jac. “For this reason, my lord, I should like to ask you something.” Inq. “What is it?” Jac. “Have you the Spirit of God, or has the council received the Spirit of God?” Inq. “No, I will not answer this.” Jac. “How then shall you or those of the council be able to judge spiritual things? for the matter of which we speak is spiritual, and must be judged by the Spirit of God.” Inq. “You are judged only because you have transgressed the decree of the prince.” Jac. “If his command had not been contrary to God’s command, I should not have transgressed it.” Inq. “It is not contrary to the command of God.” Jac. “I wish you would prove to me by the Scriptures that the decree of the Emperor or King is upright and just?”
Inq. “I believe you think that all our fathers were deceived, and that your sect is saved. What will you say? it is full twelve or thirteen hundred years since Emperor Theodosius caused the proclamation of an edict or mandate, to put to death the heretics, namely, those who were then rebaptized, like your sect.”
Jac. “Yes; my lord, you say that our sect has existed only twenty or thirty years, but it has always been the case that those who would live godly in Christ Jesus, have had to suffer persecution, according to the words of Paul.” Inq. “Thus speak all heretics.” Jac. “Paul said it first; yet he was not a heretic.” Inq. “I am well aware that he was no heretic; but they all use the words of Paul; but I tell you, decrees and mandates for the putting to death of heretics are not a recent invention, but this has obtained for fourteen hundred years already.” Jac. “But it remains to be seen whether Emperor Theodosius, of whom you spoke, did well, and a good work according to the will of God, in issuing such a mandate.” Inq. “Yes, he certainly did, since he well knew that they were heretics.” Jac. “My lord, in his opinion they were heretics: but in the opinion of those who gave their lives for the testimony of their faith, he himself was a heretic and tyrant.” Inq. “How do you know that?” Jac. “This is self-evident; for those who put us to death for our faith, we esteem no better than heretics and tyrants, as may easily be presumed that also they did who were put to death by Emperor Theodosius. Hence, this matter cannot be judged save by the Spirit of God.” Inq. “No, no, you must not think that so many learned doctors as were then in the Catholic church, would have then permitted it, if it had been wrong to put heretics to death.” Jac. “I will not rely upon the ordinances or wisdom of men; for I adhere to the instruction of Christ and his apostles, who constantly admonish us to separate from false prophets, and to shun heretics; but not to pursue them, or to persecute them unto death.” Matthew 7:15; Tit. 3:10. Inq. “My son, do you know why they did not put them to death?” Jac. “I believe it was because it was not pleasing to God.” Inq. “No, no, Jacques, it was because they were not powerful enough, and had neither king, nor prince, nor magistrate.” Jac. “Christ had power enough to call to his aid more than twelve legions of angels, and the apostles had power enough through the Holy Spirit, but they were called to be a flock of sheep and lambs, as harmless as doves, and so changed as to be like little children.” Matthew 26:53; 10:16; John 10:27. Inq. “It is true, it was so at that time.” Jac. “And shall now, my lord, the children of God be of a different nature from what they were then, shall they have the nature of wolves?” Inq. “Certainly not; I do not say that.” Jac. “Yet it appears to me, my lord, that those who now boast of being children of God, have the genuine nature of ravening wolves.”