He looked at me sharply and said to me: “Why do you think so?” Jac. “Because, my lord, Christ calls his people sheep and lambs; and it is the nature of a flock of sheep, that if they see any beast approaching, and perceive that it is a wolf, they all flee, yea, though they were a thousand of them against one wolf, and they do not pursue the wolf, to devour him, and to shed his blood; but they who boast of being the flock of Christ, do the very opposite; whence do they get this nature?” Inq. “This comparison is good for nothing, and the allegations are useless: for it does not obtain with the flock of Christ, as with a flock of sheep.”
Seeing that he rejected this, I asked him: “Is it not necessary that the children of God should be born of God, as John testifies? (John 1:13) and must they not be of such a nature and disposition as their Father and Lord?” Inq. “Yes, but why?” Jac. “Because it is written that the Son of God was led as a lamb or sheep to the slaughter, and opened not his mouth; hence his children must be of such a nature, since they are born of God.” Isaiah 53:7; Luke 8:32. Inq. “This! it had to come so.” Jac. “Why?” Inq. “That the Scriptures might be fulfilled.” Jac. “Thus it must also be with regard to his children, in order that the Scripture may be fulfilled.” Inq. “What Scripture?” Jac. “This: ‘If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord.’ ” Inq. “This he said to his apostles.” Jac. “I understand it as having been spoken by him of all his children, and as having been written for our instruction.” Inq. “No, no, my son; you must understand that the apostles were sent to proclaim and preach the gospel to every creature, and the Lord predicted that much suffering should come upon them, and that they should be put to death; but after they had gained a prince to the faith, they had rest, and might well put to death the heretics in their country.” Jac. “My lord, the Scriptures do not say this, nor can I conceive that it can be the nature of a lamb, to kill and devour a wolf; for you people say that you are the flock of Christ, and that we are ravening wolves, and you put us to death; this does not seem right to me.”
Thereupon he laughingly asked me: “Jacques, was not Peter also a sheep of Christ?” Jac. “My lord, if he was chosen of God, he also belonged to the flock.” Matt. 10:1. Inq. “Answer, yes or no.” Jac. “I believe that he was not only a sheep of the flock of Christ, but even a shepherd.” Inq. “Well then, he, who was a sheep, killed two persons.” Jac. “Whom?” Inq. “Ananias and his wife Sapphira.” Jac. “How did he kill them, seeing he had neither stick nor sword? was it not the Spirit of the Lord?” Inq. “Nevertheless, he did it.” Jac. “My lord, do not give the glory to men, as though they could do this by their own power; for they were killed through the Spirit of the Lord: moreover, it was not for such a cause as that for which you put people to death: but it was because they lied against the Holy Ghost.” Acts 3:12; 5:3. Inq. “Well, Jacques, my son, this brings us no further; see that you consider the matter well, reform, and become converted to the faith of your fathers, for you are in error; hence believe as a good Christian is bound to believe, and do not attempt so many things.” Jac. “Faith is the gift of God, says Paul.” Eph. 2:8; Rom. 12:3; 1 Cor. 12:9. Inq. “Yes, it is truly the gift of God.” Jac. “Hence men cannot give it.” Inq. “Certainly not; we must pray to God for it.” Jac. “How comes it then, that they want to compel me to believe, by threats of death?” Inq. “Time is given you, to become converted.” Jac. “My lord, how much time? six, seven, or eight days, as I have seen in Brabant; can one change his faith so speedily?” Inq. “I know nothing about Brabant, but here we give people six weeks at least, to see whether they will believe, when the word of God has been presented to them.” Jac. “Why do you say, my lord, if they will believe it? You talk as though they could believe of their own accord, and yet you say that faith is the gift of God. The apostles had heard the Lord Jesus, who was full of wisdom and truth, for two or three years, and yet they could not comprehend well, as you may gather from the two disciples who went to Emmaus. Luke 24:13. Paul also had heard the apostles and disciples; yet he could not comprehend, but cast them into prison. Acts 9:1. But when it pleased God, he made manifest his will to them, at the time which he had prepared, and not at any man-appointed time.” Inq. “That was because they had not yet this doctrine, and as it was in the beginning, they could not comprehend it.” Jac. “It was because it was not given them, or because they were not drawn by the Father (John 6:44). Why do you not also wait until God does his will with us?” Inq. “You have heard for a long time, and time is still given you for consideration; you have three weeks yet from this day, to consider the matter.” Jac. “My lord, do you not mean that after three weeks I shall be put to death?” Inq. “You may turn yet in the meantime.” Jac. “But if it be not given me, to understand differently, and I cannot comprehend otherwise, how shall I turn?” Inq. “For this reason time is given you, in order to see whether God will not show you mercy that you may become converted.” Jac. “My lord, I have in mind just now the children of Israel, who were besieged in the city of Bethulia, and suffered from scarcity of water, so that their wives and children died for thirst, and they said: There is no hope from God for us any more; let us deliver the city into the hands of the enemies. Judith 7:23, etc. Thus you people also say: There is no more hope that he will turn; let us deliver him to death. And as Ozias, the ruler of the city, thinking to give good counsel, said to the inhabitants: Let us yet wait five days, and if within these five days there come no help from the Lord, we will deliver the city to our enemies. My lord, were they not sharply rebuked by a widow named Judith, who said to them: Who are ye that have tempted God this day, and stand instead of God among the children of men, and would comprehend his purpose,” etc. Judith 8:12, etc. Inq. “This cannot be compared to your case.” Jac. “My lord, it appears to me to be the same thing; for you people say that if no help comes from God within the time appointed us by you, we must be delivered to death, and according to what you say, we are damned to all the devils.” Inq. “Jacques, there is no doubt about it.” Jac. “But how do you expect, my lord, to escape God’s judgment, since you thus send us away to damnation? why do you not leave us in the hand of God until the end? for as long as we live here, hope may always be entertained of reformation, seeing you think that we are damned; but after death there is no longer any hope.” Inq. “I do not drive you to damnation; for I am not the one that judges you; nor will I be guilty of your death.”
Jac. “My lord, when Susanna was unjustly condemned to death, who bore the punishment, the judges, or the witnesses?”
Inq. “They that were guilty.”
Jac. “My lord, the judges were rebuked by Daniel; but the witnesses were rebuked and punished.” Inq. “Do you think that I am witness in your case? I have come here simply to instruct you.” Jac. “My lord, yet I regard you as the principal witness; for upon your testimony will the judges sentence me to death, or release me, since for this purpose you have been sent here, and appointed by the King.” Inq. “I do not wish them to condemn you upon my testimony; nor do I want to judge.” Jac. “My lord, when the judges will ask you in regard to me, what will you answer? will you not say that I am a heretic, and have deserved death?” Inq. “No.” Jac. “My lord, I pray you, what will you say?” Inq. “That you are deceived, and seduced from the right way.” Jac. “To be seduced, to err, or to be a heretic, my lord, appears to me to be all the same thing.” Inq. “Well, my son, think not that I have come here to condemn you to death; for you will be sentenced only upon the confession which you made before the commissary; for, as regards myself, I do not wish them to sentence you upon my word, nor would I have anything to do with it.” Jac. “My lord, I have not followed my business so long, and sat in the council for seven or eight years, so that I should not know what this amounts to; but the reason why I tell you this, is to warn you not to stain your hands with my blood; for I well know for what purpose you have been sent here.” He now arose, and went away. The words just related we frequently had together afterwards.
On Monday, the 7th of February, 1558. I was again summoned before the same inquisitor. When I appeared before him, he saluted me, and asked: “How are you; have you the fever yet?” Jac. “I am well, the Lord be praised for it; the fever left me three weeks ago, or thereabouts.” Inq. “How are you at ease in your conscience?” Jac. “Very well, the Lord be praised for it.”
He then made a long speech, too long to be briefly related, the sum and substance of which was, that he entreated me very much, that I should return to the holy Catholic church, and believe as becomes a good Christian, without investigating such high things, and wanting to be so wise. Thereupon I replied: “I investigate nothing but what I am permitted to believe; and I am well content, simply to believe that which a good Christian is bound to believe.” Sir. 3:21. Inq. “You indeed say that you want to believe as a good Christian, and yet you have a heretical faith.” Jac. “I have no such faith; but my faith is founded only upon the pure word of God; and if you were content with the word of God, you would also be satisfied with my faith.” Inq. “True, you quote the word of God; but in your heart you understand differently.” Jac. “As we believe, so speak we; and since we adduce to you the Scriptures, which are the word of God, for a testimony of our faith, why are you not; satisfied with it? for it belongs to God alone, and not to men to search the heart.” Inq. “What then do you believe concerning Jesus Christ; whence did he take his flesh?” Jac. “Do the Scriptures teach you that you must ask me this?” Inq. “Because Menno says that he brought his flesh from heaven.” Jac. “I have not heard him say this.” Inq. “Yet he believes it.” Jac. “Menno’s belief is that the Word was made flesh, according to the testimony of John 1:14, or as the text in your Testament reads: became flesh.” Inq. “What do you believe concerning it?” Jac. “I believe that Christ is the Son of the living God.” Inq. “Whence did he take his flesh?” Jac. “I do not know, except that he is born of the Father.” Inq. “Do you not believe that he took his flesh in the womb of the virgin Mary?” Jac. “My lord, if you can prove to me that Jesus and his apostles compelled any one to confess this, I will also confess it to you; for when Peter confessed Christ, that he was the Son of the living God, Christ did not ask him, of whom he was made, but said that upon this rock he should build his church. Matt. 16:18. Again, when Candace’s eunuch said to Philip, that he believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and desired to be baptized upon this faith, Philip was satisfied, without inquiring as to whence he had taken his flesh.” Acts 8:36. Inq. “It was not necessary at that time to make such inquiry, since no difficulty existed yet concerning the matter.” Jac. “What need is there now?” Inq. “Because there are so many heretics.” Jac. “There were enough heretics also in the days of the apostles; but the reason is this, that Satan always causes some vain controversy, to corrupt men’s understanding, and to draw them into error.” Inq. “Then you will not confess that he took his flesh and blood in the virgin?” Jac. “I will not investigate that which is above my understanding, namely, whereof the Son of God was made; for this was a miraculous work. However, that you may not think me a heretic, I confess him to be the Son of God in every manner, in power and might, in spirit, in flesh and blood, begotten of the own substance of one only Father, namely, the eternal God, as the Scriptures testify to us; who was with the Father from eternity; and when the time of the promise was fulfilled, the eternal Word became flesh, and was conceived in a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, and born of said virgin Mary.” Inq. “He assumed his flesh from, and was made of, our flesh; will you say nothing with regard to this?” Jac. “I am satisfied with believing in regard to it according to the Scriptures, without further investigation.” Inq. “Do not the Scriptures say that he took upon him our flesh?” Jac. “I have never read it, and I do not wish to dispute further; besides, you said that you would not dispute about it; why then do you ask me so much concerning it?” Inq. “In order to see whether your faith is not like the faith of Menno Simon.” Jac. “You have heard that I do not receive the testimony of men, as a foundation for my faith.”
Perceiving that he could get nothing else out of me, he asked me: “What is your determination?” Jac. “I have declared my faith to you, and thereupon I have made my determination, until the contrary be proven to me.” Inq. “I have proven it to you sufficiently; but you will believe nothing but your fancy and obstinacy, and have forsaken the holy church.” Jac. “My lord, I have not forsaken the holy church; for if I had recognized your church as the holy church, I should not have forsaken it, to join another.” Inq. “Nevertheless, though Satan has thus deceived you, and you think that we are not the holy church, yet it is the same that it has always been from the times of the apostles, and been maintained through the holy teachers until the present time.” Jac. “If it is the same church which existed at the time of the apostles, it must have the same or like bishops and pastors as were then.” Inq. “Yes, and so we have.” Jac. “Well then, my lord, show me in your whole church only one bishop or pastor who is blameless in doctrine and life, even as Paul, or Timothy, or Titus, and I will follow him with all my heart.” Inq. “Have you such pastors among you?” Jac. “My lord, you say that we are Satan’s congregation, and that your church is the same which was in the time of the apostles; hence show me those people, whereby I may know them.” Inq. “Where do you think to find such? for they had the Holy Ghost, who is not given now.” Jac. “Not! How comes it then, that Paul says that he that has not the Spirit of God, is none of his?” Rom. 8:9. Inq. “This has another meaning.” Jac. “My lord, what meaning?” Inq. “He there speaks of those who do not walk after the Spirit.” Jac. “Well, for what else do I ask you, than for bishops and pastors who walk and are led by the Spirit of God, who are holy, just, vigilant, and blameless in the doctrine, in life and conversation, as Paul teaches that they must be.” Inq. “I could easily name; such bishops or pastors as are blameless, but you do not know them.” Jac. “Where are they?” Inq. “In Italy and in Spain.” Jac. “Is the church of God there, and not here?” Inq. “There is also a cardinal or bishop in England, who truly is a man blameless in doctrine and conversation.” Jac. “My lord, pray release me from these chains, and let me go, and I shall use all diligence to get to him, to see whether it is true.”
He laughingly replied: “No, no; you must believe what is told you.” Jac. “My lord, it is written: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man. Jer. 17:5. Shall I depend upon your word alone?” Inq. “Do you think that I lie?” Jac. “I do not say that: but I want to see it first before I believe it.” Inq. “Yes, yes, but you cannot now.” Jac. “Since I cannot see it, I cannot believe it either.” Inq. “Why will you pay so much attention to their conversation, seeing they have the doctrine of the apostles?” Jac. “This is yet to be proven to me, and it would be difficult for you to prove to me by the Scriptures, that they have the doctrine of the apostles.” Inq. “Nevertheless they have it; but you are hardened, and cannot comprehend it.” Jac. “This assertion lacks the support of the Scriptures, and if they are trees from the roots of the apostles, show me the fruits, that I may know them.” Inq. “Can you then know the faith by the works, whether it is good or bad.” Jac. “My lord, our Master has taught us that we shall know the false prophets by their fruits (Matt. 7:16); for when we find grapes on the vine, we dare not say, like you people do, that we have plucked them from thorns.”