Mr. Scott.—Has not this Government a right to restrain every wild-goose excursion into the woods? If it has not, the Union must fall prostrate at the feet of every wild speculator. Pennsylvania, at a great expense, made preparations for an establishment at Presqu'Isle. The ground had been bought at a great expense from the United States. Yet for the sake of general peace, the settlement had been stopped.
Mr. McDowell denied that the two cases corresponded, for the lands at Presqu'Isle had not been given to the Six Nations.
Mr. Boudinot differed from the last speaker. He did not think that any thing farther had been done against the interest of North Carolina than against that of Pennsylvania.
Mr. Blount denied that the Indians ever occupied the lands in question, or were fit to occupy them, in any proper sense of the word. To walk across a country, and to shoot in it, was different from an occupation. But, besides, the Creeks and Cherokees were not the only tribes who had hunted there. It had been said yesterday that these lands gave rise to speculation. Mr. B. wished that it had done so, for in that case the certificates would all have been paid by this time. There was no difficulty in funding Southern certificates, when once they got into the hands of Northern speculators. Mr. B. thought himself entitled to receive back from the United States the money which he had paid into the Treasury of North Carolina for these lands.
Mr. Murray requested the favor of any gentleman to inform him, whether the lands in question were possessed and occupied, in the more civilized sense of the terms, by the white people? He believed they were not. Had they been in peaceable possession, living on, and cultivating the lands, that circumstance would form a very interesting motive in his mind in favor of the indemnity that was asked. But, in fact, they never were possessed of any right but that which North Carolina could give them—the pre-emption right; that right they now possessed as fully as they did at the time of the cession to the United States. [Mr. Carnes rose, and informed him, that many white people who had begun farms were driven off their lands, and reduced to great distress by the proceedings of the commissioners.] Mr. M. said, an argument struck him of some weight—that if the claim be gratified, the claimants will be in a better situation now than they would have been if the cession had not been made; for North Carolina could not have given them absolute possession but by force of arms. This she would not have a right to do, under this Confederation, nor under the constitution, as no one State can make war. But the claimants can ask nothing more of the United States than they could have had accomplished for them by the State of North Carolina. A new doctrine, resulting from the Revolution, must be admitted as a ground of reasoning, when Indian, unconquered territory, is before us. The Provinces had power, as individual bodies—which States, as such, have not—the right of making war, and gaining possession of Indian territory by conquest. So it was, that a province could, from its own separate resources, make war on Indians, and pay individually the expense. But when the great contest for independence came on, all the States were, in fact, principal confederated bodies, long before they signed the paper of confederation. The doctrine, which suited such a body of States, was, that whatever might be gained by the joint efforts and expense of all, should be the property of all, jointly; and he thought that every principle of sound justice warranted him in applying the doctrine, so far as to say, that whatever might be the chartered limits of each province, while dependent, yet the moment of the joint contest was that in which the true limits of a State were, as far as property in land went, confined to that boundary which was really located, occupied, and peaceably holden within the limits. To say that the State had a right more positive than the pre-emptive one, to lands actually occupied and defended by hostile tribes of Indians within the chartered limits, admits a principle, that, if put into action, tended necessarily to violate the great principle of the Confederation, and of the present constitution, which divests the individual States of the right to make war; as the State to make good any sales she might make within the hostile territory, would be obliged to make war on the tribes to dispossess them. The lands in question were in this situation. They were occupied by Indian tribes, and were never in possession of North Carolina. The gentleman from that State seems to doubt the occupancy of the tribes. Mr. M. believed we would violate principles of justice were we to borrow the principle of occupancy from books, and apply it to Indian society. The Indian tribes held certain tracts of land. As to the mode in which they thought it most rational to use the land, it was nothing against their right to say its exercise differed from our mode. He understood they made a hunting ground of the land in dispute. They had a right to use it as such, and their mode of use was no argument against their right. All that could be, or was proved to belong to North Carolina, was the colonial right to qualified sovereignty, called the pre-emption right. This was all she could grant, and this was all that the claimants could take from her. They had that now; and as he could not see the propriety of making their situation better than if the cession had not been made, so he could not agree to the resolution for giving them indemnity. Perhaps his ideas on the subject might be fashioned by local circumstances, belonging as he did to a State which had no share in those rich funds which the large frontier States possessed, he thought, very unjustly, in immense tracts of back lands. He felt it a duty to narrow all claims like the present as much as possible. Connecticut, Rhode Island, Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, were all in the same situation. They had no back lands, and were divested of the share they were justly entitled to in the back lands, which now bring immense funds of wealth into the land offices of those States which possess them.
Mr. Heister wished to have that part of the law read which relates to the species of certificates referred to in the debate; this was accordingly done. Mr. H. said that he had not enough of evidence before him to give a vote. He therefore wished that the committee might rise.
Mr. Macon said, that, according to Mr. Boudinot, it was the doctrine of North Carolina in 1783, that the State possessed aright to the unappropriated lands. If that was their doctrine then, nothing had since happened which could make it cease to be so now. The Crown of Britain had transferred the absolute property of lands, without inquiring for permission from the Indians. This evidence went strongly to prove that North Carolina had the same title. The case of Presqu'Isle did not apply, for Pennsylvania was raising troops to make that settlement, and no State can, by the constitution, raise troops of itself. He wished the committee not to rise till they had determined the question.
Mr. Carnes had foreseen that the claim before the committee would be opposed upon various grounds: but he considered none of them as well founded. Grants were first made by North Carolina to individuals, of lands within her chartered boundary. The cession made to, and accepted by the United States, conditioned to secure the interest of individuals. A treaty was thereafter ordered to be held by the United States with the Indians, and by that treaty, lands formerly granted, were relinquished to them. The commissioners of North Carolina protested in form. The people turned out, had paid ten pounds the hundred acres, for their lands, and they were entitled to compensation from North Carolina, or from the United States. It had been said that North Carolina had no right but that of pre-emption. This Mr. C. denied. North Carolina had a right to all the lands within her boundary; and there was an express agreement reserving those lands to individuals. Why did the United States contract with the State, if she had no right? The Indians never could have been considered an independent nation, else there would be compensation in imperio. He mentioned the case of the Tallissee Country containing four million of acres. By a treaty made in 1785, between the State of Georgia and the Creeks, this land was ceded to Georgia. By a second treaty at New York, this very country was relinquished to the Indians, and of course the bona fide right of the State wrested from them. If a decision could be had on this case before a judicial tribunal, it would not require a moment's hesitation to determine in favor of the State, and that the treaty was a nullity. It had been alleged that the right of pre-emption was the only right in possession of the States, that is, a title to purchase of the holders of the property, in exclusion of all other States, or individuals thereof or the particular State. Mr. C. contended that the fee-simple of all the soil within the chartered limits belonged to the State. As to the boundaries, the definitive treaty of peace settles them beyond contradiction. As to the proprietors of these lands being in no worse condition now than before the cession back to the Indians, the people were ploughing the lands, when driven from them, and will any gentleman say that this is not injuring people? As to the State of North Carolina having no particular claim to the land now beyond the Indian line, he would put a case within the chapter of possibilities. Suppose that all the Indians were driven over the Mississippi to-morrow, to whom would the lands which they now possess belong? The particular States to be sure, within whose range they lay. The gentlemen who advocate for morality, and who talk of treating the Indians with humanity, are the very men who have uniformly countenanced the raising of troops, and augmenting the force on our north-western frontiers. How can they reconcile their conduct? The Indians to the South are to be treated with humanity, and those to the North are to be butchered, that the United States may enjoy their property.
Mr. Boudinot said, that the charter from Britain extended to the South Sea, but such a stretch of territory was not really claimed by Britain. He read several of the old laws of North Carolina, to prove that the Indian right of soil had always been acknowledged.
Mr. Blount had never thought of quoting this book, which he now did, to show that the British Government had authorized conquest. He did not know of one purchase made in Carolina. It was all conquest, and so were nine-tenths of all the lands held by the white people in America.