Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Mr. Heath hoped the Message would not be passed over in silence. The President surely is not infallible. A very important constitutional question is involved; he hoped the reference would be agreed to.

Mr. Sitgreaves was against the motion. The House have made a demand on the President; the President refused it; this must naturally put an end to the correspondence on this subject. The difference of sentiment between the two branches is not sufficient reason for converting the journals of the House into a volume of debates. If the majority are to place their reasons, the minority cannot be denied the same indulgence; then for a rejoinder, rebutters, surrebutters, without end. From the practice of the House, in a case analogous, a rule of conduct for the present case may be drawn. When a bill is sent to the President, if he dislikes it, he negatives and sends it to the House with his reasons. Those reasons are put on the journals, as directed by the constitution; but it contains nothing to direct or authorize the majority to register their reasons, and thus to enter into a controversy. The return bill is put to vote, and if two-thirds of each House agree to it, it passes; if not, it falls to the ground, but no reasons are entered on the part of the House.

Mr. Gallatin said he did not expect the motion for a reference would have met with any opposition. Some members are of opinion, that the Message should be passed over in silence; others had resolved to ground some act upon it. There exists a difference, then, on this first point. The natural course is, then, a reference to a Committee of the Whole, to determine whether the House would act further on the business.

In Committee of the Whole a discussion could be had concerning the propriety of acting further on the Message. When the House made the call for papers, they did not give their reasons in the resolution; it was but a bare request. The President decided he could not comply with it. If he had stopped here, perhaps there might be grounds for ending the correspondence here; but he was not satisfied with this, but has entered into his motives for refusing. Indeed, he had gone further; he had adverted to the debates had in the House. He may be mistaken as to the motives he ascribes to the House. In this delicate situation it is certainly right to notice the Message, and to explain the real motives of the House in support of the motion. If it is a novelty to reply to an answer of the President's, it was equally a novelty, also, in making an answer to notice a debate in support of a resolution. It is necessary to refer the Message to a Committee of the Whole, to determine how to act. He declared his mind was not made up upon this point, and therefore he wished it referred to a Committee of the Whole. Not, however, to the Committee on the state of the Union, because there exists no connection with the subject referred to that committee. Referring to a Committee of the Whole is deciding nothing, but only determining to examine; it could not decide on the propriety of acting.

Mr. Cooper said, that the further the gentlemen travelled a wrong road, the further they would get out of a true course, and the more difficult it would be to return.

Mr. Harper observed, that this was not the first attempt to get the House to do something, to commit them to do something further. A motion is now made to refer the Message to a Committee of the Whole, and the House are told, that if the motion be carried, it is nothing, it is deciding nothing, but will only lead to an inquiry whether the House ought to act. He insisted that such a reference would in fact be determining that they would act, and then, in committee, they would determine how, and in that committee, he said they would be asked, why did the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole if not to act? So, when the Indian Treaty was ratified, a motion was made to request the President to lay it before the House. When it was laid before them, it was then contended that the House had a right to interfere in the Treaty, or why ask for it? It could not be supposed that gentlemen of any understanding could be imposed upon by such a flimsy sophistry. It was now the proper time, and the House the proper place, he contended, to settle the principle whether the House would sanction any further proceedings on the Message. What reason could be adduced for acting? It is said that the President has not only refused the papers, but given his reasons for the refusal, and that his reference to the debate, and the statement he made about the motives of the House, might be found incorrect; that the President may have attributed to the majority motives they were not willing to avow. The motives had been avowed by the gentleman who led the business from Pennsylvania.

Mr. Harper was called to order. He concluded by declaring that he would vote against the reference.

Mr. Varnum observed, that a great constitutional question was to be decided; two branches of the Government differed, and they had joined issue. The President had given the reasons of his opinion; it was right, also, that the people should know the sense of the House. Shall the House take no further measures on the subject, and receive the answer of the President as obligatory with regard to the question? He believed every member of the House has, as well as the President, the right to avow his principles, and to judge of the import of the different parts of the constitution. The House he conceived under an obligation to consider the question: if they found, upon consideration, reason to recede from their opinions, he hoped they would. He wished the subject examined with temper and candor.

Mr. Kittera chiefly dwelt on the length of time, which, if the motion was agreed to, would be consumed in the business. He also touched on the impropriety of entering into a disquisition on the merits of this question on the journals.

Mr. Crabb.—Mr. Speaker, I hope the Message received from the President, in answer to the resolution of this House, calling for certain papers relative to the British Treaty, will be referred to a Committee of the whole House. My reasons for this wish are, because the President has refused the papers on constitutional principles, and has thought proper to go into a detail of the reasons which led to a formation of his opinion; therefore I apprehend it proper to make the reference, in order, that if the reasons urged by the President are such as to convince this House that he is right as to the constitutional question, that they may have an opportunity to acknowledge it, that it may be so known and understood abroad, inasmuch as the contrary opinion has been promulgated; and again, I wish the reference, that this House may, with respect and calm deliberation, consider the President's Message, and the reasons on which his refusal to send the papers is grounded, that if those reasons are not such as to convince or change the opinion of this House, they, in that case, may have an opportunity so to express themselves, and to introduce resolutions to that effect, that the opinion of this House, on this great constitutional question, after the receipt and consideration of the President's Message, may be fully known, clearly understood, and stamped on your journals. I think this a necessary measure, inasmuch as sundry Treaties lately negotiated are now before this House, and by a declaratory resolution, as before stated, this House may save the constitutional principle, and feel themselves at perfect liberty to pass the necessary laws to carry these Treaties into complete effect, without conveying the implication, that they think they are bound so to do, and have not a constitutional right to reject and refuse, when even they shall judge the general prosperity of the Union, and the interest of their constituents, may be promoted by that refusal.