Mr. Gallatin said, there seemed to be involved in the present consideration the question whether or not we should have a Navy. As to himself, he should vote against the present appropriation, because if the frigates were completely finished, he should fear they would get to sea. When they had on a former occasion consented to finish them, it was under the condition of the law for manning being repealed; but they now stood upon new ground. Mr. G. said he had been charged with inconsistency of opinion, from having before said that he thought the President would not be authorized to proceed in the manning of the vessels under the present law, whilst he was now apprehensive that he might do so. He wished to be on sure ground. He did not know but the President might put a different construction upon the law from him. Indeed, from the experience they had had of Presidential discretion, they need not be surprised if the vessels were sent to sea, though no appropriation was made for the purpose, should the President suppose there was any plea for doing so. As a proof of this power having been exercised heretofore, Mr. G. referred to the Western insurrection. In that case, he said, no appropriation was made for the expense; but the law authorizes the President to call out the militia when he shall see occasion to do so; he called them out, and got money from the Treasury. Indeed, the building of a frigate for Algiers, without any authority, and the pledging of the faith of the nation to pay the expense of the law-suits of our citizens in London, were strong proofs of what the Executive could do.
Mr. G. said he did not mean to bring into view any arguments relative to the propriety of establishing a Navy in this country. He should vote against the present motion, because he did not wish to see the frigates at sea, and because he conceived a Navy to be prejudicial to the true interests of this country. Something had been said about contracts, but he did not believe any existed. They had last year been told the same thing. Any person reading the statements which had been furnished to them, would perceive that the business was not done by any contract, but that men were employed by Government, and regular wages paid to them. The frigate which had been built for Algiers had been built by contract, they had an estimate of it at so much a ton, but this was not the case with respect to any other of the frigates.
Mr. W. Smith did not wish to go into a long debate on the subject, when they had so much business before them, in order to show whether it was proper for this country to have a Navy or not; the only question now was, whether they ought to appropriate money for finishing the three frigates. If they did not do it, all the money which had been already expended would probably be lost. The only objection to the doing of this seemed to arise from a fear that the vessels would be manned, though when this subject was before them, the other day, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) moved to postpone the bill relative to the repealing or suspending the law for manning the vessels till next session, from an opinion that, by the present law, the President was not authorized to man them. That gentleman seemed now, however, in contradiction to himself, to fear the President would put a different construction upon the law: if he did not believe the President would violate the law, he could not account for his refusing now to vote the money which was merely necessary to finish the vessels. Mr. S. read an extract from the report of the Secretary of War, to show the forward state in which the vessels were, and added, that they were bound in duty to finish them, were it only to prevent the loss of the money already expended upon them.
Mr. Dearborn observed, that if he was convinced, from the documents which had been laid before them, that the sum now asked for was necessary merely to finish the frigates, he should not hesitate to vote for it; but it was not a little extraordinary that the gentlemen on that committee (not even the Chairman, who seemed to have the business so much at heart) could not say whether this sum was necessary for finishing and rigging, or finishing without rigging, or for finishing, rigging, and manning. The frigate building in this city, the captain had told him, was calculated in point of size to carry 62 guns, instead of 44; which was one of the reasons they had cost so much more than they had been estimated at. Mr. D. said, he suspected that the sum proposed would not only be sufficient to finish the hulls, but to rig and fit the vessels for sea, and until he had more satisfaction on the subject he could not consent to give his vote for it.
Mr. Kittera observed, that gentlemen first said, that under the present law, the President could not proceed to man and send the vessels to sea, but now they were apprehensive this might be done, though no appropriation was made for the purpose. This, he thought, somewhat inconsistent; but he believed whilst thirty dollars a month was given to seamen by merchants, and their law only authorized eleven to be given, there was not much to be feared on this head.
Mr. Ames said, that gentlemen opposed to the finishing of the frigates, seemed to be also opposed to all ideas of this country ever becoming a naval power; the necessity of this, he was persuaded, would ere long appear. It was not to be supposed that a nation whose commerce was greater than that of any other, except Great Britain, should go on long without a naval protection; and he believed the more strenuous the opposition shown against this measure, the sooner it would be accomplished; he was not therefore displeased to see the present violent opposition to every thing which looked towards this object.
It was not enough, Mr. A. said, for gentlemen to discourage the building of ships, they would also discredit the administration of Government; and nothing was more natural than that those who thought so ill of it themselves should endeavor to spread those opinions. This was done continually. With respect to the building of the frigates, he thought it was a wise step; and as to the extra expense and delay which had attended the business, he believed, gentlemen might take a share of the blame upon themselves, on account of the versatility which had been shown upon the occasion in this day agreeing upon one thing, and that upon another. It was true, that another cause of extra expense was owing to a resolution which had been taken to make the ships much larger than was contemplated by the House; the vessel building here, he believed, was nearly 1,600 tons. He was glad that this alteration of plan had been adopted; not because more money would be expended on this account; not because contrary to the direction of the Legislature, but because true wisdom required it; they would now be an overmatch for any frigate, or any vessel which the Algerines could send out against them. These, he believed, were the views of the Executive in having them built of the size they were. The number of the frigates agreed to be finished had been reduced to three; and these they last session passed a law to finish. But what was now to be done? It was said they should not be finished. Who said this? Did the people? did the Government say it? No; that House alone said it: so that that House were about to usurp the supreme authority. We are the Government, we are the people, we are every thing.
But, if there be a law which says that these three frigates should be built and equipped for sea, was it not necessary, before it was concluded that they should not be so built and equipped, that this law should be repealed by all the branches of the Legislature? No, say gentlemen, we can appropriate or not, according to our sovereign will and pleasure. If they possessed the power to nullify what was enacted by all the three branches of Government, it was greatly to be lamented. But if they could appropriate according to their will, they were bound to do it also according to their consciences too. It was not only a weapon, but a shield, which it was their duty to use with great caution, and according to law; for, if they were to use it contrarily, it would be to make that House the supreme power, it would be to usurp the supreme authority.
Mr. Coit believed the only real question before them was, what sum they would appropriate for this object; he wished the mover would consent to leave the item blank.
Mr. W. Smith had no objection to its being left blank.