Mr. Venable said, if this was a mere question of expense, it was very extraordinary that it should have called forth such a philippic from the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames,) who had charged the House with arrogating to itself all the powers of Government; as being omnipotent. Upon what ground could he found such charges? If it were a question of expense merely, there could certainly be no ground for such charges; but if it were to be considered as a question of power, if they were to be told they dared not to withhold the appropriation in question, here he would intrench himself as a Representative of the people; he had a right, as a member of that House, to vote against the expense which he thought improper, and he would exercise that right. Every branch of Government had the same right, and he wished them to exercise it. And he would not be told, when he was about to exercise this right, that he was arrogating to himself all the powers of Government. He was determined to exercise his discretion on every question which came before him for decision, and he would vote against this expense.
Mr. Nicholas said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) seldom spoke without casting some denunciation against that House. He had, however, allowed that the President had done, with respect to this fleet, all that any gentleman had charged him with doing; he had even put the case stronger than any other person had put it; for he had said that the Executive had determined to build the vessels of a larger size than had been contemplated by the Legislature, in order to be an overmatch for any other frigate. All this, said Mr. N., may be right, and the approbation he gave this conduct, was a proof the gentleman thought so; all he had to say was, that it was not legal; it might be patriotic, and be done with an intention to serve the country; the President might understand the interests of the country better than they; but it was a conduct which would not meet with the same approbation from him that it met with from the gentleman from Massachusetts. That gentleman had also said that a law imposed a duty upon the House to find the means for carrying it into effect. Were they not, then, to be called upon for money to man the frigates? He asked those gentlemen whether the President had not a right to man the frigates, and if so, whether they should not be obliged to find the money?
The powers of this House to control appropriations, had, however, already been settled. It was, indeed, an absurdity to call a body a Legislature, and at the same time deny them a control over the public purse; if this were not so, where would be the use of going through the forms of that House with a money bill? The Executive might as well draw upon the Treasury at once for whatever sums he might stand in need of. A doctrine like this would be scouted even in despotic countries.
And what was all this power that so much alarmed the gentleman from Massachusetts? It was merely a negative power to refuse to do what they thought it would be mischievous to do. Mr. N. said there was a very fashionable doctrine of throwing all power into the hands of the Executive. If there were to be extremes, however, he believed an excess of power would at least be as safe in their hands as in those of the Executive; and if this were his opinion, and the ground upon which he acted, the gentleman from Massachusetts never failed to take an opposite direction. He never thought any Executive power too great.
Mr. Parker remarked, that it had been said the frigates would carry 62 guns; it might have been possible to have made them so, but they were no more than a large sized 44-gun frigate. They might be a little larger than any other of that number of guns, but not so much. It was true they were not at first contemplated to be so large, but strong reasons were offered for making them of the present size; the expense was not increased by the increase of size, in proportion to their usefulness. He therefore himself approved of what the President had done; and, if he had had the management of the business, he should have done the same. It had been doubted whether the sum proposed to be granted would not only finish, but equip and man the vessels. If the gentleman who had these doubts would refer to the report which had been made on the subject, he would find that $220,000 would be required for that purpose; the $172,000 proposed would barely make them ready for sea in other respects.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. Gallatin,) who was generally very correct in his statements, had supposed that if the frigates were finished, the President might go on to man them without consulting the Legislature upon the occasion; and, to show the possibility of doing this, he had alluded to his having built a frigate for the Algerines without the approbation of Congress. He lamented the situation in which we stood with that country, but he believed the building of the frigate was necessary. The Western insurrection, and the law-suits in London had also been named, which he should not stop to notice.
In answer to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, he would say, that if the President could man the vessels and send them to sea independent of Congress, he might also finish them without their aid; but he did not believe he would place himself in the same situation with respect to them as if he had to do with a foreign nation. In relation to foreign nations, he had great power; but, if he went beyond his power with respect to internal regulations, he would be liable to impeachment, and he would be one of the first to promote an impeachment, were such to be his conduct.
Mr. Ames said, he understood the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Nicholas) to say, that the conduct of the Executive was illegal; but certainly if a frigate was estimated to cost $12,000 and it cost $15,000, the expenditure of the additional $3,000 was not illegal.
Mr. Nicholas said, he had made use of the gentleman's own words with respect to the change in the plan of building the frigates, which he had called illegal.
Mr. Ames said, as to the size of the vessels, that was Executive business. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Venable) seemed to take the observation which he had made with a degree of sensibility perfectly natural, because it went to touch the power which he had claimed as a member of that House. The gentleman said, "Here I intrench myself behind my privileges." Nothing was said about the public good; all was self.