Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 2 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Mr. Nicholas felt as much as other gentlemen from the Southern States on the subject of the present petition, but his feelings did not produce the same effect. He was not afraid of an interference from the United States with their property, nor of any investigations or discussions respecting it. He believed it would be to the honor of people holding property in slaves, that the business should be looked into. He thought such an inquiry would rather secure than injure their property. He did not think it was the interest of slaveholders to cover improper practices. He was satisfied, that in the part of the country where he lived, there was no disposition to protect injuries—no disposition to reject an inquiry, or to refuse to understand a complaint. They had been told that the state of the negroes, whose cases were mentioned in the memorial, might be produced by the fugitive law; they had before heard that this law had operated mischievously. It ought, therefore, to be inquired into. On inquiry, Mr. N. said, it would not be found the fault of the Southern States that slavery was tolerated, but their misfortune; but to liberate their slaves at once, would be to act like madmen; it would be to injure all parts of the United States as well as those who possess slaves. It was their duty, however, to remedy evils; they were unfortunately placed in a situation which obliged them to hold slaves, but they did not wish to extend the mischief. He should, indeed, be sorry if his possessing property of this kind, obliged him to cover the violation of another man's right; if this were the case, he should think it necessary that his property should be taken from him. He did not think it necessary, and he doubted not, if a fair investigation took place, that this kind of property would be brought into the situation in which every man of sense would place it. He was firmly of an opinion, that to appear to be afraid of an inquiry would do more harm to this property than a fair investigation. He trusted, therefore, the petition would be committed.

Mr. Blount hoped this memorial would not be committed. As this was not the first time the society of Quakers had come forward with petitions to the House, seemingly with no other view than to fix an odium on the State of North Carolina, he thought it his duty positively to contradict a fact stated in this memorial. It was stated that 134 persons, set free from slavery in North Carolina, had been since enslaved by cruel retrospective, or ex post facto laws; they alleged that certain members of their society had done what no person was permitted to do. Mr. B. read part of a law of North Carolina, stating "that no negro or mulatto slave shall be set free, except for meritorious services, acknowledged by a license of the court; and when any person shall be set free contrary to this law, he may be seized and sold as a slave," &c. He also read a clause from another law, passed afterwards, stating that several persons having set at liberty their slaves contrary to law, and persons having taken up and sold them, are doubtful of the validity of the sale, and that this law is passed to do away all doubts of such validity. Mr. B. said these extracts proved the assertion untrue.

Mr. Gordon lamented that this discussion had taken place, as it was certain that wherever interest is concerned, some degree of warmth will be produced; and when a petition was brought forward which might affect the property of many gentlemen in this House, and their constituents, it could not be expected they would hear it with the same calmness with persons wholly unconcerned about it. All that had been advanced in favor of the second reading of the petition was, the respectability of the persons presenting it, the opinion that would be entertained of the petitioners, if their petition was not referred, and the merits of the petition itself.

With respect to the persons of the petitioners, he felt inclined to do them every justice; but he did not think this any reason for acting upon their memorial, unless some good consequence could arise from it, any more than if they were the vilest persons on earth. As to the opinion that might be entertained out of doors, as the petition was not examined, he was not afraid that the citizens of the United States would believe that the House could be so far lost to its duty as not to look into a question of this kind, but that it would be conceived, if rejected, that they had nothing to do with it. The other reason, the only material one, was to the merits of the petition. The gentleman from Delaware, (Mr. Bayard,) who had examined the business with much coolness and ability, had stated that a certain ex post facto law of North Carolina had occasioned grievances. Admitting there was such a law, what could the House do? Could they declare a law of North Carolina null and void? There would be no utility in this; but if there was a law in North Carolina that violated the constitution, there was a clear remedy in the law which organizes the Judical department of the United States, in which it is said, if any law of an individual State interferes with a law of the United States, a person has a right to take advantage of the law of the United States. There was no necessity, therefore, to call upon Congress for a remedy against this law. Indeed, he saw nothing in this memorial which called for their interference, and he was therefore against a reference, as a further discussion of it would only produce uneasiness in certain parts of the United States, without producing any good.

Mr. Rutledge observed, that notwithstanding all that had been said, considering the present extraordinary state of the West India Islands and of Europe, he should insist that "sufficient for the day is the evil thereof," and that they ought to shut their doors against any thing which had a tendency to produce the like confusion in this country. If this were not done, the confidence of a great part of the Union in the General Government would be weakened. In the Southern States, where most of their property consisted of slaves, and where the rest was of no value without them, there was already a prejudice existing that the Northern and Eastern States were inimical to this kind of property, though they were bound by the constitution from an interference with it; but when they heard of the House giving countenance to a petition like the present, it would increase their uneasiness. He referred to what had fallen from the gentleman from Delaware respecting ex post facto law, and thought a court of justice the proper tribunal to settle that business. Mr. R. said he was indisposed, notwithstanding the high panegyrics which had been passed upon the body of Quakers, to withdraw the censures he had cast upon them. The gentleman from New York had doubted the charges which he had produced, and said such things could never be attempted by the body. It was true, they did not come in a body into his lodging to seduce his servant, but individuals did it. But why, he asked, do these men come here in a body? Because they believe that their presence will give more weight to their petition; so that they appeared in bodies, or as individuals, to answer their purposes. Gentlemen had charged the opposers of the petition with heat; he thought there was as much heat on one side as the other.

Mr. Edmond did not believe there was any real ground of irritation in the question; as no gentleman could suppose they were about to do any thing which was either unconstitutional, or which would affect their property. Whether the persons who presented the memorial are virtuous or vicious, was of no consequence, since justice was due to both classes of men. They had brought a petition before them, and they ought to consider it. It was addressed to their honesty or justice; if the facts were claims upon their honesty or justice they should be attended to; and not only attended to, but, if possible, relief granted. It was stated that there were a number of persons held in bondage who were justly entitled to liberty.

This fact called for examination; and a question arose, if it were established, whether that House could afford redress. A gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Blount) had stated that the fact was not true; it was certainly, therefore, worth while to be inquired into. Another gentleman had said, if the fact were as stated, they had no power to act; and a third was of opinion that, by the constitution, redress might be afforded. This diversity of opinion showed the necessity of an investigation of the subject, in order to determine the jurisdiction of the House. He wished it for another reason. It had been stated, that if this petition were attended to, it would open a door to faction and mischief. Can it have this effect? These people bring forward a petition stating a number of facts; they certainly do not come forward for the mere design of exciting disorder in any quarter. If the House say they will throw their petition under the table, would not such treatment give the factious some ground of clamor by which to sow dissension? But if, on the contrary, they coolly looked into the petition, and reported thereon, would it not stop the mouths of these people? It certainly would; since they could not then say common justice was refused to the petitioners. Again; having once investigated the subject fully, if petitions of a similar kind should hereafter come forward, it would be reasonably said, this matter has already been taken up and fully decided upon; and, therefore, we will not again go into it. Until this was done, the factious would doubtless have cause of complaint.

Mr. Blount said, several gentlemen who had spoken on this subject seemed to express themselves as if they believed there was no punishment for individuals reducing to slavery persons who had been manumitted. He read an extract from a law, passed in 1779, in North Carolina, by which the punishment of death is awarded against such an offence.

Mr. Macon read the proceedings of the House on the petition respecting the kidnapping of negroes, in order to show that the gentleman from New York (Mr. Livingston) had misstated the issue of the business. The last report on the subject was that it would be best to leave the regulation of the subject to the Legislatures of the several States. Mr. M. allowed that his reflections upon the whole body of Quakers were too general, and he had no hesitation in retracting them; but he believed a number of them were guilty of the charges brought against them by the gentleman from South Carolina.

Mr. Thatcher said, if, when the motion was first made, he had been against it, from what had fallen from gentlemen on the subject, he should now be in favor of it; for, notwithstanding they opposed the second reading of the petition, they were filing off in squads to read it, and ready to fight for a sight of it. He believed, therefore, they had some reasons for opposing the second reading, which did not appear. He referred to what had been said by the gentleman from North Carolina, as to the fact stated in the petition, and said that, notwithstanding the laws which he had read, the fact might be true; but that this very doubt about the fact was an additional reason for going into the inquiry.