Mr. Thatcher rose and said, he should make a motion, touching the rights of man, by moving to strike out the excepting clause in the 3d section of the bill. [It appears that in the ordinance establishing a government in the North-western Territory, slavery is expressly forbidden, and this section of the bill directs that a government similar in all respects to that established in the North-western Territory shall be established in the Mississippi Territory, except that slavery shall not be forbidden.]
Mr. Harper did not believe his friend's motion would be a proper mode of supporting the rights of man. In the North-western Territory the regulation forbidding slavery was a very proper one, as the people inhabiting that part of the country were from parts where slavery did not prevail, and they had of course no slaves amongst them; but in the Mississippi Territory it would be very improper to make such a regulation, as that species of property already exists, and persons emigrating there from the Southern States would carry with them property of this kind. To agree to such a proposition would, therefore, be a decree of banishment to all the persons settled there, and of exclusion to all those intending to go there. He believed it could not, therefore, be carried into effect, as it struck at the habits and customs of the people.
Mr. Varnum did not know that the gentleman from South Carolina wished to promote the rights of man. His observations showed, at least, that he did not wish to support the rights of all men; for where there was a disposition to retain a part of our species in slavery, there could not be a proper respect for the rights of mankind. It was true that this kind of property is held in the Southern States, because they cannot, consistent with the safety of the people of those States, liberate them on account of their very great numbers. But they considered it as a great burden to be obliged to hold them. He hoped, therefore, Congress would have so much respect for the rights of humanity as not to legalize the existence of slavery any farther than it at present exists. He believed the gentleman from South Carolina was mistaken in saying that such a regulation would oblige all the inhabitants settled in this territory to remove. The provision need only extend to the forbidding of slaves being taken there. What, said he, is the situation of the North-western Territory at this time? Land there is worth more than in some of the old settled States; and he believed this high price of land, and prosperous condition of the country, was entirely owing to the absence of slavery. And if the Southern States could get clear of their slaves, the price of their land would immediately double. At any rate, he hoped the United States would prevent an increase of this calamity; for he looked upon the practice of holding blacks in slavery in this country to be equally criminal with that of the Algerines carrying our citizens into slavery.
Mr. Rutledge wished the gentleman from Massachusetts would withdraw his motion, not from any apprehension he had that it would obtain; but he hoped that he would not indulge himself and others in uttering philippics against a practice with which his and their philosophy is at war. He submitted to the gentleman's candor whether it was proper, on every occasion, to do this—to bring forward the Southern States in an odious light, or to give his neighbor and colleague an opportunity of bringing them forward, and comparing them with Algerines! He thought propriety and decency towards other members required that such language should be checked. He believed, if his friend from Massachusetts had recollected that the most angry debate which had taken place during this session was occasioned by a motion on this subject, he would not have brought forward the present question. One gentleman says, you call these men property; another, you hold these men in chains; a third, you violate the rights of man! And are not these men property? Do not the people in this territory hold them as such? Did they not hold them under the Spanish Government? And must we thus address these people: "We have made a treaty which puts you under the mild government of the United States, but we must take from you your property; or rather, we must set your blacks at liberty to cut your throats. The rights of man was the watch-word of the day, and Congress have determined that you shall not possess this property. They cannot as yet do slavery away altogether—the day is not yet arrived; but they have determined it shall not exist in the Mississippi Territory."
These, said Mr. R., are not mere speculative opinions. They lead to more mischief than gentlemen are aware of; and he trusted if the gentleman from Massachusetts could be convinced that the discussion of such questions as the present did much mischief in certain parts of the Union, he would not bring them forward. He hoped he would withdraw the present motion.
Mr. Gordon thought that when the gentleman from Massachusetts recollected that, by the establishment of this government, the United States do not establish their exclusive right to this territory, he would consent to withdraw his amendment, as that went to say that we had the absolute right of jurisdiction, and were determined to exercise it; and in making a difference between the ground on which property was held there from that on which it was held in Georgia, they would militate against the 5th section of the bill.
Mr. Otis hoped his colleague would not withdraw his motion; and the reason why he wished this was, that an opportunity might be given to gentlemen who came from the same part of the Union with him to manifest that it is not their disposition to interfere with the Southern States as to the species of property in question. With respect to the existence of slavery, the House had often heard gentlemen, who are owners of slaves, declare that it is not their fortune, but their misfortune that they possess them, but who still keep them, and claim the right of managing them as they think proper. He thought it was not the business of those who had nothing to do with that kind of property to interfere with that right; and he really wished that the gentlemen who held slaves might not be deprived of the means of keeping them in order.
If the amendment prevailed, it would declare that no slavery should exist in the Natchez country. This would not only be a sentence of banishment, but of war. An immediate insurrection would probably take place, and the inhabitants would not be suffered to retire in peace, but be massacred on the spot. By permitting slavery in this district of country, the number of slaves would not be increased—as if emigrants from South Carolina or Georgia were to remove into this country they would take their slaves with them; and he could see nothing in this which could affect the philanthropy of his friend. The North-western Territory is inhabited by a description of persons who have not been accustomed to hold slaves, and therefore the restriction is agreeable to them; but the territory in question will be settled by people from the Southern States, who cannot cultivate the ground without slaves. He hoped, however, the motion would be persisted in, and negatived by a large majority.
Mr. D. Foster hoped, if the motion was not withdrawn, that a long debate might not be had upon it.
Mr. Thatcher said he should not withdraw his motion, and the more it was opposed, believing his cause to be good, the more obstinate he should be in its support.