Mr. Giles wished to suggest a single idea. The present motion was brought forward from the avowed motive of furthering the rights of man. He did not know whether the tendency of it was calculated to ameliorate the condition of the class of men alluded to; he believed not. On the contrary, it was his opinion, that if the slaves of the Southern States were permitted to go into this Western country, by lessening the number in those States, and spreading them over a large surface of country, there would be a greater probability of ameliorating their condition, which could never be done whilst they were crowded together as they now are in the Southern States.
Mr. Hartley said, he had himself intended to have brought forward an amendment similar to the present, but, on inquiry, he found so many difficulties in the way, that he was obliged to abandon it. He found it would interfere with, and be a serious attack upon, the property of that country. He was sorry it was not in the power of Congress to gratify the wishes of philanthropists in this respect, by doing away slavery altogether; but this could not be done at present, and as he believed the present amendment, if carried, would be attended with bad effects, he should vote against it.
Mr. Gallatin said, if he saw any of the great inconveniences which were foretold as likely to arise from this amendment, he should certainly vote against it. He should be extremely averse to the adoption of any principle which should either directly or indirectly lead to the production of any commotion or insurgency in any State where there is a great number of slaves. He did not see how any such effect could be produced by the present motion; for, notwithstanding what had fallen from the gentleman from South Carolina, it did not appear to him how a regulation with respect to another Territory can affect the peace, tranquillity, or property of any other State. How the forbidding of slavery in the Mississippi Territory could produce a worse effect than the same regulation in the North-western Territory, or in Pennsylvania, or in several other States. The amendment, therefore, could not be opposed on that ground; it must be on some other. Ought it to be rejected on the ground of jurisdiction? Certainly not. The United States intend to exercise jurisdiction over that Territory, and was there any more reason for excepting this jurisdiction than any other? If we establish this Government we expect it to be permanent; and if we believe it is not conducive to the happiness of any people, but the contrary, to legalize slavery, when we are about to form a constitution for a Territory, its establishment ought to be prevented. But, if this amendment is rejected, we establish slavery for the country, not only during its temporary government, but for all the time it is a State; for, by the constant admission of slaves, the number will increase to a certain degree, and when the Territory shall become a State, the interest of the holders will be such as to procure a constitution which shall admit of slavery, and it will be thereby made permanent. Having determined slavery was bad policy for the North-western Territory, he saw no reason for a contrary determination with respect to this Territory.
There was, then, only one solitary objection to the amendment, and that might easily be obviated. It was with respect to the situation of the people already settled there who are possessed of slaves. It would be extremely impolitic and unjust to declare by ordinance that the people settled there, either under the British, Spanish, or Georgia governments, should be deprived of this kind of property; and if this was the effect of the amendment, he would vote against it. Such a regulation would be attended with the worst of consequences; but other words may be easily introduced to guarantee the property of the persons already settled there.
By the laws of the different States, Mr. G. said, the importation of slaves is forbidden; but if this amendment does not obtain, he knew not how slaves could be prevented from being introduced by the way of New Orleans, by persons who are not citizens of the United States. He hoped, therefore, the amendment would be agreed to.
Mr. Nicholas believed it not only to be the interest of the Southern States, but of the United States, that this motion should be rejected. They were to legislate for the whole of the Union, and ought to consult the happiness of the whole. It was not for them to attempt to make a particular spot of country more happy than all the rest. If it was a misfortune to the Southern States to be overwhelmed with this kind of property, he asked if it would not be doing service not only to them but to the whole Union, to open this Western country, and by that means spread the blacks over a large space, so that in time it might be safe to carry into effect the plan which certain philanthropists have so much at heart, and to which he had no objection, if it could be effected, viz: the emancipation of this class of men? And when this country shall have become sufficiently populous to become a State, and the Legislature wishes to discountenance slavery, the increase of slaves may be prevented, and such means taken to get rid of slavery altogether, perhaps in conjunction with other parts of the United States, who by that time may be in such a situation as to admit of it, as shall appear prudent and proper.
Mr. Thatcher was of an opinion directly opposite to the gentleman who had just sat down. Indeed, they seldom did agree in sentiment; to-day they differed very widely. He believed the true interest and happiness of the United States would be promoted by agreeing to this amendment; because its tendency was to prevent the increase of an evil which was acknowledged by the very gentlemen themselves who are owners of slaves. Indeed the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Nicholas) had frequently declared in that House, that slavery was an evil of great magnitude. In this respect they agreed in opinion; for he considered the existence of slavery in the United States as the greatest of evils, an evil in direct hostility to the principles of our Government; and he believed the Government had the right to take all due measures to diminish and destroy the evil, although in doing it they might injure the property of some individuals; for he never could be brought to believe that an individual can have a right in any thing which goes to the destruction of our Government, viz: that he can have a right in a wrong. A property in slaves is founded in wrong, and never can be right. He believed Government must of necessity put a stop to this evil, and the sooner they entered upon the business the better.
Mr. T. said, he honestly confessed he did not like to hear much said in that House about the rights of man; because of late there had been much quackery as to these rights. But, because these rights had been abused, it did not follow that man has no rights. Where legislators are freely chosen by the people, and frequently renewed; where a law cannot be passed without affecting the interests of the persons who pass it, these rights cannot greatly be abused; but, when we take upon us to legislate for men against their will, it is proper enough to say something about the rights of man, and to remind others, who are frequently heard speaking of these rights, that by nature these enslaved men are entitled to rights; and on that account it was, when he made this motion, that he said he would make a motion touching the rights of man.
The reasons offered against the amendment by the gentleman from Virginia, were a little singular. He contended that certain States were overflowing with slaves, and if not colonized by opening this wide tract of country to them, they would not be able to keep or manage them. He always thought that colonizing these people tended to increase the race far beyond what it would be when penned closely together.
Mr. Giles explained, by saying, that he had said nothing about decreasing the number of blacks, but of spreading them over a larger surface of country.