As to the remarks made by the gentleman from Delaware, Mr. G. said he was extremely glad that gentleman was for giving to the Territory the right of a State. If, however, he had attended to the report, he would have found that his calculation of numbers was incorrect. The population of five thousand had been deducted by the committee, and after that deduction forty-five thousand remained. Though the numbers in the Territory proposed to be formed into a State amounted, a year ago, to no more than forty thousand, yet it might be stated upon strong ground, that, before the new government can get into operation, there will be a sufficient population to demand admission as a matter of right. By attaching the inhabitants on the north of the line to the Indiana Territory, they will remain in the same grade of government they now are, and not be degraded, as stated by the gentleman from Delaware, to a lower state. This disposition appeared to Mr. G. the best that could be made. But if, when gentlemen came to the details of the bill, it should be thought best to introduce into the new State the population north of the line, he said he might have no objection.
Mr. Fearing stated the great inconveniences that would be felt by the inhabitants north of the line, if attached to the Indiana Territory. He considered the remarks of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Giles,) respecting the participation of this description of citizens in forming a constitution for others, as entitled to little weight. Such a measure was by no means uncommon. It had been done in the case of Kentucky, and other States.
Mr. F. conceived that the people of the Territory had all equal rights under the ordinance; they had been virtually promised that they should not be attached to any other Western Territory, and Congress had only reserved to themselves the right of admitting them into the Union as States. More they could not do, without their consent.
Mr. Bayard moved to strike out of the resolution the words that fix the boundary, for the purpose of introducing words that should prescribe that the new State be circumscribed by the original boundaries of the Eastern State, referring to Congress the right of making one or more States in said State at any future time.
Mr. Giles said that the State, as formed in the report, was one of the most compact and convenient in the Union. The amendment would materially change its character. Besides, it would in fact impair the right of Congress to accommodate the boundaries to future circumstances. It was well known, and sensibly felt, that there were many inconvenient boundaries to several of the States now in the Union; yet so great was the difficulty attending their alteration, that they could not be changed.
Mr. Bayard was not so sensible of the difficulty of altering the boundaries as the gentleman from Virginia, who had stated that Congress would not have power to alter them when once fixed. This difficulty might exist as to the States now in the Union, because Congress had not the constitutional power to alter them without the consent of the adjacent States. But if this power be referred to Congress, which will be a disinterested tribunal, there will be no difficulty in varying the boundaries as circumstances shall dictate.
Mr. B. asked, if, while gentlemen are attending to the interests and wishes of one part of the people, they are disposed to disregard the interests and wishes of another part? If they were not, they ought to admit the section, proposed by the resolution to be cut off, to a participation in State rights.
Mr. Bacon objected to the amendment. He said that Congress were vested by the constitution with certain powers which they cannot increase, or diminish, or delegate. By the constitution likewise, the several States are vested with certain powers which they cannot increase, diminish, or divest themselves of. By the third section of the fourth article of the constitution, "new States may be admitted by the Congress into the Union." This act proposes to make this Territory a State with State powers under the constitution. How, then, can these people, once a State, divest themselves of these powers. This is a question that does not interest simply the State proposed to be formed, but every State in the Union. All are equally interested in preserving the powers vested in them by the constitution.
Mr. Bayard said he did not see any occasion for striking out the proviso. The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Bacon) goes on the principle that Congress has only a right to admit, without any reservation. Mr. B. said he had always believed the greater included the smaller. If you are vested with the greater power of admitting, you have certainly the minor powers included in the greater power. From the nature of the ordinance, it constitutes the fundamental principle on which the States are admitted—they are not admitted under the constitution. They are to be admitted exclusively under the provision of the ordinance. You may, therefore, say that you will not now exercise the whole power committed to you, but reserve the right of exercising it hereafter.
Mr. Smilie did not consider the principle laid down by the gentleman from Delaware as constitutional. We must be governed by the constitution. If the Territory be admitted as a State into the Union, when admitted it must be bound down by the constitution, which says the boundaries of States shall not be altered but with the express permission of the State.