The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

The clause in Resol. 3 "to receive fixed stipends to be paid out of the Nation^l Treasury" considered.

M^r Elseworth, moved to substitute payment by the States out of their own Treasurys: observing that the manners of different States were very different in the stile of living and in the profits accruing from the exercise of like talents. What would be deemed therefore a reasonable compensation in some States, in others would be very unpopular, and might impede the system of which it made a part.

M^r Williamson favored the idea. He reminded the House of the prospect of new States to the Westward. They would be too poor—would pay little into the common Treasury—and would have a different interest from the old States. He did not think therefore that the latter ought to pay the expences of men who would be employed in thwarting their measures & interests.

M^r Ghorum[98] wished not to refer the matter to the State Legislatures who were always paring down salaries in such a manner as to keep out of offices men most capable of executing the functions of them. He thought also it would be wrong to fix the compensations by the constitution, because we could not venture to make it as liberal as it ought to be without exciting an enmity ag^st the whole plan. Let the Nat^l Legisl: provide for their own wages from time to time; as the State Legislatures do. He had not seen this part of their power abused, nor did he apprehend an abuse of it.

[ [98] "M^r Gorham is a merchant in Boston, high in reputation, and much in the esteem of his country-men. He is a man of very good sense, but not much improved in his education. He is eloquent and easy in public debate, but has nothing fashionable or elegant in his style;—all he aims at is to convince, and where he fails it never is from his auditory not understanding him, for no man is more perspicuous and full. He has been President of Congress, and three years a Member of that Body. M^r Gorham is about 46 years of age, rather lusty, and has an agreeable and pleasing manner."—Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 325.

M^r Randolph said he feared we were going too far, in consulting popular prejudices. Whatever respect might be due to them, in lesser matters, or in cases where they formed the permanent character of the people, he thought it neither incumbent on nor honorable for the Convention, to sacrifice right & justice to that consideration. If the States were to pay the members of the Nat^l Legislature, a dependence would be created that would vitiate the whole System. The whole nation has an interest in the attendance & services of the members. The Nation^l Treasury therefore is the proper fund for supporting them.

M^r King, urged the danger of creating a dependence on the States by leav^g to them the payment of the members of the Nat^l Legislature. He supposed it w^d be best to be explicit as to the compensation to be allowed. A reserve on that point, or a reference to the Nat^l Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum that would be actually necessary or proper.

M^r Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of it to the State Legislatures.

M^r Wilson was ag^st fixing the compensation as circumstances would change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great moment that the members of the Nat^l Gov^t should be left as independent as possible of the State Gov^ts in all respects.

M^r Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations for the Nat^l Gov^t independent on the State Gov^ts but at the same time approved of fixing them by the Constitution, which might be done by taking a standard which w^d not vary with circumstances. He disliked particularly the policy suggested by M^r Williamson of leaving the members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious & parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and respectable characters into the service.