Yates' report of the speech is meagre. The closing paragraph, apparently the part lacking in Madison's report, is:
"While we were dependent on the crown of Great Britain, it was in contemplation to form the whole into one; but it was found impracticable. No legislature could make good laws for the whole, nor can it now be done. It would necessarily place the power in the hands of the few nearest the seat of government. State governments must therefore remain, if you mean to prevent confusion. The general negative powers will support the general government. Upon these considerations, I am led to form the second branch differently from the report. These powers are important, and the number not too large, upon the principle of proportion. I have considered the subject with great attention; and I propose this plan (reads it), and if no better plan is proposed, I will then move its adoption."—Yates, Secret Proceedings, etc., 163.
The mode of constituting the 2d branch being under consideration.
The word "national" was struck out, and "United States" inserted.
Mr Ghorum, inclined to a compromise as to the rule of proportion. He thought there was some weight in the objections of the small States. If Va should have 16. votes & Delre with several other States together 16, those from Virga would be more likely to unite than the others, and would therefore have an undue influence. This remark was applicable not only to States, but to Counties or other districts of the same State. Accordingly the Constitution of Massts had provided that the representatives of the larger districts should not be in an exact ratio to their numbers, and experience he thought had shewn the provision to be expedient.
Mr Read. The States have heretofore been in a sort of partnership. They ought to adjust their old affairs before they open a new account. He brought into view the appropriation of the com̃on interest in the Western lands, to the use of particular States. Let justice be done on this head; let the fund be applied fairly & equally to the discharge of the general debt, and the smaller States who had been injured; would listen then perhaps to those ideas of just representation which had been held out.
Mr Ghorum, did not see how the Convention could interpose in the case. Errors he allowed had been committed on the subject. But Congs were now using their endeavours to rectify them. The best remedy would be such a Government as would have vigor enough to do justice throughout. This was certainly the best chance that could be afforded to the smaller States.
Mr Wilson, the question is shall the members of the 2d branch be chosen by the Legislatures of the States? When he considered the amazing extent of Country—the immense population which is to fill it, the influence which the Govt we are to form will have, not only on the present generation of our people & their multiplied posterity, but on the whole Globe, he was lost in the magnitude of the object. The project of Henry the 4th & his Statesmen was but the picture in miniature of the great portrait to be exhibited. He was opposed to an election by the State Legislatures. In explaining his reasons it was necessary to observe the twofold relation in which the people would stand, 1. as Citizens of the Genl Govt 2. as Citizens of their particular State. The Genl Govt was meant for them in the first capacity: the State Govts in the second. Both Govts were derived from the people—both meant for the people—both therefore ought to be regulated on the same principles. The same train of ideas which belonged to the relation of the Citizens to their State Govts were applicable to their relation to the Genl Govt and in forming the latter, we ought to proceed, by abstracting as much as possible from the idea of the State Govts. With respect to the province & object of the Genl Govt they should be considered as having no existence. The election of the 2d branch by the Legislatures, will introduce & cherish local interests & local prejudices. The Genl Govt is not an assemblage of States, but of individuals for certain political purposes—it is not meant for the States, but for the individuals composing them; the individuals therefore not the States, ought to be represented in it: A proportion in this representation can be preserved in the 2d as well as in the 1st branch; and the election can be made by electors chosen by the people for that purpose. He moved an amendment to that effect which was not seconded.
Mr Elseworth saw no reason for departing from the mode contained in the Report. Whoever chooses the member, he will be a Citizen of the State he is to represent & will feel the same spirit & act the same part whether he be appointed by the people or the Legislature. Every State has its particular views & prejudices, which will find their way into the general Councils, through whatever channel they may flow. Wisdom was one of the characteristics which it was in contemplation to give the second branch. Would not more of it issue from the Legislatures; than from an immediate election by the people. He urged the necessity of maintaining the existence, & agency of the States. Without their co-operation it would be impossible to support a Republican Govt over so great an extent of Country. An army could scarcely render it practicable. The largest States are the worst Governed. Virga is obliged to acknowledge her incapacity to extend her Govt to Kentuckey. Massts cannot keep the peace one hundred miles from her capitol and is now forming an army for its support. How long Pena may be free from a like situation cannot be foreseen. If the principles & materials of our Govt are not adequate to the extent of these single States; how can it be imagined that they can support a single Govt throughout the U. States. The only chance of supporting a Genl Govt lies in grafting it on that of the individual States.
Docr Johnson urged the necessity of preserving the State Govts which would be at the mercy of the Genl Govt on Mr Wilson's plan.