Mr Gerry. This is the critical question. He had rather agree to it than have no accommodation. A Governt short of a proper national plan, if generally acceptable, would be preferable to a proper one which if it could be carried at all, would operate on discontented States. He thought it would be best to suspend the question till the Comme yesterday appointed, should make report.
Mr Sherman Supposed that it was the wish of every one that some Genl Govt should be established. An equal vote in the 2d branch would, he thought, be most likely to give it the necessary vigor. The small States have more vigor in their Govts than the large ones, the more influence therefore the large ones have, the weaker will be the Govt. In the large States it will be most difficult to collect the real & fair sense of the people. Fallacy & undue influence will be practised with most success; and improper men will most easily get into office. If they vote by States in the 2d branch, and each State has an equal vote, there must be always a majority of States as well as a majority of the people on the side of public measures, & the Govt will have decision and efficacy. If this be not the case in the 2d branch there may be a majority of States agst public measures, and the difficulty of compelling them to abide by the public determination, will render the Government feebler than it has ever yet been.
Mr Wilson was not deficient in a conciliating temper, but firmness was sometimes a duty of higher obligation. Conciliation was also misapplied in this instance. It was pursued here rather among the Representatives, than among the Constituents; and it wd be of little consequence if not established among the latter; and there could be little hope of its being established among them if the foundation should not be laid in justice and right.
On Question shall the words stand as part of the Report?
Massts divd. Cont ay. N. Y. ay. N. J, ay. Pa no. Del. ay. Md ay. Va no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. divd
(Note. several votes were given here in the affirmative or were divd because another final question was to be taken on the whole report.)
Mr Gerry[127] thought it would be proper to proceed to enumerate & define the powers to be vested in the Genl Govt before a question on the report should be taken as to the rule of representation in the 2d branch.
[ [127] King gives the three speeches of Gerry, Madison and Pattersonas follows:
"Gerry. I agree to the measure, provided that the first Br. (H. of Reps.) shall originate money bills and money appropriations. The prejudices as well as the interest of our Constituents must be regarded—two or three thousand men are in office in the States—their influence will be in favor of an Equality of votes among the States.
"Madison. Equality in the Senate will enable a minority to hold a majority, and to oblige them to submit to their interests, or they will withdraw their assent to measures essential and necessary to the general Good. I have known one man, when the State was represented by only two, and they were divided, oppose six States in Congress on an important occasion for three days, and finally compel them to gratify his caprice in order to obtain his suffrage. The Senate will possess certain exclusive Powers, such as the appointments to office, if the States have equal votes; a minority of People will appoint the Great Offices. Besides the small States may be near the Seat of Govt.—a bare Quorum of the H. of R. may be easily assembled, and carry a bill against the sense of a majority if all were present, and the Senate, tho' all were present, might confirm such Bill. Virginia has objected to every addition of the powers of Congress, because she has only 1/13 of the Power when she ought to have one sixth.
"Paterson. I hope the question will be taken: if we do not give equal votes in the Senate to the States, the small States agreeing that money Bills and appropriations shall originate in the H. of Reps., elected according to numbers, it must not be expected that the small States will agree to the amendments of the Confederation. Let us decide this question and lose no more time. I think that I shall vote against the provision, because I think that the exclusive originating of money Bills & appropriations by the H. of Reps. is giving up too much on the part of the small States."—King's Life and Correspondence of Rufus King, I., 613.
Mr Madison, observed that it wd be impossible to say what powers could be safely & properly vested in the Govt before it was known, in what manner the States were to be represented in it. He was apprehensive that if a just representation were not the basis of the Govt it would happen, as it did when the Articles of Confederation were depending, that every effectual prerogative would be withdrawn or withheld, and the New Govt wd be rendered as impotent and as shortlived as the old.