The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

Mass^ts no. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinkney & M^r Butler made the same motion in favor of S. Carolina

On the Question it passed in the negative

Mass^ts no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Gen^l Pinckney & M^r Houston moved that Georgia be allowed 4 instead of 3 Rep^s urging the unexampled celerity of its population. On the Question, it passed in the Negative

Mass^ts no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Madison, moved that the number allowed to each State be doubled. A majority of a Quorum of 65 members, was too small a number to represent the whole inhabitants of the U. States; They would not possess enough of the confidence of the people, and w^d be too sparsely taken from the people, to bring with them all the local information which would be frequently wanted. Double the number will not be too great, even with the future additions from New States. The additional expence was too inconsiderable to be regarded in so important a case. And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular on that score, the objection was overbalanced by its effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular candidates.

M^r Elseworth urged the objection of expence, & that the greater the number, the more slowly would the business proceed; and the less probably be decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number of Representatives too great in most of the State Legislatures; and that a large number was less necessary in the Gen^l Legislature than in those of the States, as its business would relate to a few great national Objects only.

M^r Sherman would have preferred 50 to 65. The great distance they will have to travel will render their attendance precarious and will make it difficult to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to undertake the service. He observed that the expected increase from new States also deserved consideration.

M^r Gerry was for increasing the number beyond 65. The larger the number, the less the danger of their being corrupted. The people are accustomed to & fond of a numerous representation, and will consider their rights as better secured by it. The danger of excess in the number may be guarded ag^st by fixing a point within which the number shall always be kept.