Mr Gerry thought that 3/5 of them was to say the least the full proportion that could be admitted.
Mr Ghorum. This ratio was fixed by Congs as a rule of taxation. Then it was urged by the Delegates representing the States having slaves that the blacks were still more inferior to freemen. At present when the ratio of representation is to be established, we are assured that they are equal to freemen. The arguments on ye former occasion convinced him that 3/5 was pretty near the just proportion and he should vote according to the same opinion now.
Mr Butler insisted that the labour of a slave in S. Carola was as productive & valuable as that of a freeman in Massts, that as wealth was the great means of defence and utility to the Nation they were equally valuable to it with freemen; and that consequently an equal representation ought to be allowed for them in a Government which was instituted principally for the protection of property, and was itself to be supported by property.
Mr Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virga because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding & supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the Community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of Representation. He could not however regard them as equal to freemen and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above the other species of property common to all the States.
Mr Williamson reminded Mr Ghorum that if the Southn States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did not however either then or now concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of 3/5.
On Mr Butler's motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the apportionmt of Representation
Massts no. Cont no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J. no. Pa no. Del. ay. Md no. Va no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
Mr Govr Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of Mr Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. it would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to entitle them to a single Representative. 3. it will not consist with the Resolution passed on Saturday last authorizing the Legislature to adjust the Representation from time to time on the principles of population & wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth then the sd Resolution would not be pursued. If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included? These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers & wealth of different countries, rendered all reasoning superfluous on the subject. Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain, agst her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even in this respect.
Mr King thought there was great force in the objections of Mr Govr Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing something.
Mr Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers; they shd not therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will not concur in such a plan. He moved that "at the end of —— years after the 1st meeting of the Legislature, and of every —— years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population."