The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

M^r Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observation of (M^r Randolph & M^r Mason), that the periods & the rule, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Constitution.

M^r Reed thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It would make the Constitution like Religious Creeds, embarrassing to those bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and scism, than harmony and union.

M^r Mason objected to M^r Rutlidge's motion, as requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for doing nothing.

M^r Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.

M^r Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little biassed by local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the Legislature hereafter under the full biass of those views, will be able to settle a standard. He was convinced by the arguments of others & his own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or other.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The arg^ts of others & his own reflections had led him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. The remarks of (M^r Mason) relative to the Western Country had not changed his opinion on that head. Among other objections it must be apparent they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened, to share in the administration of our common interests. The Busy haunts of men not the remote wilderness, was the proper school of political Talents. If the Western people get the power into their hands they will ruin the Atlantic interests. The Back members are always most averse to the best measures. He mentioned the case of Pen^a formerly. The lower part of the State had y^e power in the first instance. They kept it in y^r own hands & the country was y^e better for it. Another objection with him ag^st admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pen^a would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been raised ag^st leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time, to time, to the discretion of the Legislature. The 1. was, they would be unwilling to revise it at all. The 2 that by referring to wealth they would be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be unable to execute. The 1^st objⁿ distrusts their fidelity. But if their duty, their honor & their oaths will not bind them, let us not put into their hands our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us have no Gov^t at all. 2. If these ties will bind them, we need not distrust the practicability of the rule. It was followed in part by the Com^e in the apportionment of Representatives yesterday reported to the House. The best course that could be taken would be to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people.

M^r Madison was not a little surprised to hear this implicit confidence urged by a member who on all occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the political depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one vice and interest by opposing to them another vice & interest. If the Representatives of the people would be bound by the ties he had mentioned, what need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary power? But his reasoning was not only inconsistent with his former reasoning, but with itself. At the same time that he recommended this implicit confidence to the Southern States in the Northern majority, he was still more zealous in exhorting all to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To reconcile the gentlⁿ with himself, it must be imagined that he determined the human character by the points of the compass. The truth was that all men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. The case of Pen^a had been mentioned where it was admitted that those who were possessed of the power in the original settlement, never admitted the new settlem^ts to a due share of it. England was a still more striking example. The power there had long been in the hands of the boroughs, of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every reform which had been attempted. Virg^a was in a lesser degree another example. With regard to the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion, that no unfavorable distinctions were admissible either in point of justice or policy. He thought also that the hope of contributions to the Treas^y from them had been much underrated. Future contributions it seemed to be understood on all hands would be principally levied on imports & exports. The extent and fertility of the Western Soil would for a long time give to agriculture a preference over manufactures. Trials would be repeated till some articles could be raised from it that would bear a transportation to places where they could be exchanged for imported manufactures. Whenever the Mississippi should be opened to them, which would of necessity be y^e case as soon as their population would subject them to any considerable share of the Public burden, imposts on their trade could be collected with less expence & greater certainty, than on that of the Atlantic States. In the mean time, as their supplies must pass through the Atlantic States, their contributions would be levied in the same manner with those of the Atlantic States. He could not agree that any substantial objection lay ag^st fix^g numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation. It was said that Representation & taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other. He admitted that in different climates, under different forms of Gov^t and in different stages of civilization the inference was perfectly just. He would admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants were an accurate measure of wealth. He contended however that in the U. States it was sufficiently so for the object in contemplation. Altho' their climate varied considerably, yet as the Gov^ts the laws, and the manners of all were nearly the same, and the intercourse between different parts perfectly free, population, industry, arts, and the value of labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves. The value of labour might be considered as the principal criterion of wealth and ability to support taxes; and this would find its level in different places where the intercourse should be easy & free, with as much certainty as the value of money or any other thing. Wherever labour would yield most, people would resort, till the competition should destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people are constantly swarming from the more to the less populous places—from Europe to Am^a—from the Northⁿ & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern & Western. They go where land is cheaper, because there labour is dearer. If it be true that the same quantity of produce raised on the banks of the Ohio is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true that the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the quantity in the former, that it will raise in the latter situation.

Col. Mason. Agreed with M^r Gov^r Morris that we ought to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people; but the objection was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives of the people. It would continue so no longer than the States now containing a majority of the people should retain that majority. As soon as the Southern & Western population should predominate, which must happen in a few years, the power w^d be in the hands of the minority, and would never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for by the Constitution.

On the Question for postponing M^r Williamson's motion, in order to consider that of M^r Rutlidge, it passed in the negative, Mass^ts ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question on the first clause of M^r Williamson's motion as to taking a census of the free inhabitants, it passed in the affirmative; Mass^ts ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered.