The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

M^r Sherman, thought there was no probability that the number of future States would exceed that of the Existing States. If the event should ever happen, it was too remote to be taken into consideration at this time. Besides We are providing for our posterity, for our children & our grand Children; who would be as likely to be citizens of new Western States, as of the old States. On this consideration alone, we ought to make no such discrimination as was proposed by the motion.

M^r Gerry. If some of our children should remove, others will stay behind, and he thought it incumbent on us to provide for their interests. There was a rage for emigration from the Eastern States to the Western Country, and he did not wish those remaining behind to be at the mercy of the emigrants. Besides foreigners are resorting to that Country, and it is uncertain what turn things may take there.—On the question for agreeing to the Motion of M^r Gerry, it passed in the negative.

Mass. ay. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a div^d. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Rutlidge proposed to reconsider the two propositions touching the originating of money bills in the first & the equality of votes in the second branch.

M^r Sherman was for the question on the whole at once. It was he said a conciliatory plan, it had been considered in all its parts, a great deal of time had been spent upon it, and if any part should now be altered, it would be necessary to go over the whole ground again.

M^r L. Martin urged the question on the whole. He did not like many parts of it. He did not like having two branches, nor the inequality of votes in the 1^st branch. He was willing however to make trial of the plan, rather than do nothing.

M^r Wilson traced the progress of the report through its several stages, remarking y^t when on the question concerning an equality of votes, the House was divided, our Constituents had they voted as their representatives did, would have stood as 2/3 ag^st the equality, and 1/3 only in favor of it. This fact would ere long be known, and it will appear that this fundamental point has been carried by 1/3 ag^st 2/3. What hopes will our Constituents entertain when they find that the essential principles of justice have been violated in the outset of the Governm^t. As to the privilege of originating money bills, it was not considered by any as of much moment, and by many as improper in itself. He hoped both clauses w^d be reconsidered. The equality of votes was a point of such critical importance, that every opportunity ought to be allowed, for discussing and collecting the mind of the Convention upon it.

M^r L. Martin denies that there were 2/3 ag^st the equality of votes. The States that please to call themselves large, are the weakest in the Union. Look at Mas^ts. Look at Virg^a. Are they efficient States? He was for letting a separation take place if they desired it. He had rather there should be two Confederacies, than one founded on any other principle than an equality of votes in the 2^d branch at least.

M^r Wilson was not surprised that those who say that a minority is more than a majority should say the minority is stronger than the majority. He supposed the next assertion will be that they are richer also; though he hardly expected it would be persisted in when the States shall be called on for taxes & troops.

M^r Gerry also animadverted on M^r L. Martins remarks on the weakness of Mas^ts. He favored the reconsideration with a view not of destroying the equality of votes; but of providing that the States should vote per Capita, which he said would prevent the delays & inconveniences that had been experienced in Cong^s and would give a national aspect & Spirit to the management of business. He did not approve of a reconsideration of the clause relating to money bills. It was of great consequence. It was the corner stone of the accommodation. If any member of the Convention had the exclusive privilege of making propositions, would any one say that it would give him no advantage over other members. The Report was not altogether to his mind. But he would agree to it as it stood rather than throw it out altogether.