The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

The reconsideration being tacitly agreed to

M^r Pinkney moved that instead of an equality of votes, the States should be represented in the 2^d branch as follows: N. H. by 2 members. Mass. 4. R. I. 1. Con^t 3. N. Y. 3. N. J. 2. P^a 4. Del. 1; M^d 3. Virg^a 5. N. C. 3. S. C. 3. Geo. 2. making in the whole 36.

M^r Wilson seconds the motion

M^r Dayton. The smaller States can never give up their equality. For himself he would in no event yield that security for their rights.

M^r Sherman, urged the equality of votes not so much as a Security for the small States; as for the State Gov^ts which could not be preserved unless they were represented & had a negative in the Gen^l Government. He had no objection to the members in the 2^d b. voting per capita, as had been suggested by (M^r Gerry).

M^r Madison concurred in this motion of M^r Pinkney as a reasonable compromise.

M^r Gerry said he should like the motion, but could see no hope of success. An accommodation must take place, and it was apparent from what had been seen that it could not do so on the ground of the motion. He was utterly against a partial confederacy, leaving other States to accede or not accede, as had been intimated.

M^r King said it was always with regret that he differed from his colleagues, but it was his duty to differ from (M^r Gerry) on this occasion. He considered the proposed Government as substantially and formally, a General and National Government over the people of America. There never will be a case in which it will act as a federal Government on the States and not on the individual Citizens. And is it not a clear principle that in a free Gov^t those who are to be the objects of a Gov^t ought to influence the operations of it? What reason can be assigned why the same rule of representation s^d not prevail in the 2^d branch as in the 1^st.? He could conceive none. On the contrary, every view of the subject that presented itself, seemed to require it. Two objections had been raised ag^st it, drawn 1. from the terms of the existing compact. 2. from a supposed danger to the smaller States.—As to the first objection he thought it inapplicable. According to the existing Confederation, the rule by which the public burdens is to be apportioned is fixed, and must be pursued. In the proposed Govern^t it cannot be fixed, because indirect taxation is to be substituted. The Legislature therefore will have full discretion to impose taxes in such modes & proportions as they may judge expedient. As to the 2^d objection, he thought it of as little weight. The Gen^l Govern^t can never wish to intrude on the State Govern^ts. There could be no temptation. None had been pointed out. In order to prevent the interference of measures which seemed most likely to happen, he would have no objection to throwing all the State debts into the federal debt, making one aggregate debt of about 70,000,000 of dollars, and leaving it to be discharged by the Gen^l Gov^t. According to the idea of securing the State Gov^ts there ought to be three distinct legislative branches. The 2^d was admitted to be necessary, and was actually meant, to check the 1^st branch, to give more wisdom, system, & stability to the Gov^t and ought clearly as it was to operate on the people, to be proportioned to them. For the third purpose of securing the States, there ought then to be a 3^d branch, representing the States as such, and guarding by equal votes their rights & dignities. He would not pretend to be as thoroughly acquainted with his immediate Constituents as his colleagues, but it was his firm belief that Mas^ts would never be prevailed on to yield to an equality of votes. In N. York, (he was sorry to be obliged to say any thing relative to that State in the absence of its representatives, but the occasion required it), in N. York he had seen that the most powerful argument used by the considerate opponents to the grant of the Impost to Congress, was pointed ag^st the vicious constitution of Cong^s with regard to representation & suffrage. He was sure that no Gov^t could last that was not founded on just principles. He preferred the doing of nothing, to an allowance of an equal vote to all the States. It would be better he thought to submit to a little more confusion & convulsion, than to submit to such an evil. It was difficult to say what the views of different Gentlemen might be. Perhaps there might be some who thought no Governm^t co-extensive with the U. States could be established with a hope of its answering the purpose. Perhaps there might be other fixed opinions incompatible with the object we are pursuing. If there were, he thought it but candid that Gentlemen should speak out that we might understand one another.

M^r Strong. The Convention had been much divided in opinion. In order to avoid the consequences of it, an accommodation had been proposed. A Committee had been appointed: and though some of the members of it were averse to an equality of votes, a Report had been made in favor of it. It is agreed on all hands that Congress are nearly at an end. If no Accommodation takes place, the Union itself must soon be dissolved. It has been suggested that if we cannot come to any general agreement, the principal States may form & recommend a Scheme of Government. But will the small States in that case ever accede it. Is it probable that the large States themselves will under such circumstances embrace and ratify it. He thought the small States had made a considerable concession in the article of money bills, and that they might naturally expect some concessions on the other side. From this view of the matter he was compelled to give his vote for the Report taken altogether.

M^r Madison expressed his apprehensions that if the proper foundation of Governm^t was destroyed, by substituting an equality in place of a proportional Representation, no proper superstructure would be raised. If the small States really wish for a Government armed with the powers necessary to secure their liberties, and to enforce obedience on the larger members as well as themselves he could not help thinking them extremely mistaken in their means. He reminded them of the consequences of laying the existing Confederation on improper principles. All the principal parties to its compilation joined immediately in mutilating & fettering the Governm^t in such a manner that it has disappointed every hope placed in it. He appealed to the doctrine & arguments used by themselves on a former occasion. It had been very properly observed by (M^r Patterson) that Representation was an expedient by which the meeting of the people themselves was rendered unnecessary; And that the representatives ought therefore to bear a proportion to the votes which their constituents if convened would respectively have. Was not this remark as applicable to one branch of the Representation as to the other? But it had been said that the Govern^t would in its operation be partly federal, partly national; that altho' in the latter respect the Representatives of the people ought to be in proportion to the people; yet in the former it ought to be according to the number of States. If there was any solidity in this distinction he was ready to abide by it, if there was none it ought to be abandoned. In all cases where the Gen^l Governm^t is to act on the people, let the people be represented and the votes be proportional. In all cases where the Govern^t is to act on the States as such in like manner as Cong^s now acts on them, let the States be represented & the votes be equal. This was the true ground of compromise if there was any ground at all. But he denied that there was any ground. He called for a single instance in which the Gen^l Gov^t was not to operate on the people individually. The practicability of making laws, with coercive sanctions, for the States as Political bodies, had been exploded on all hands. He observed that the people of the large States would in some way or other secure to themselves a weight proportioned to the importance accruing from their superior numbers. If they could not effect it by a proportional representation in the Gov^t they would probably accede to no Gov^t which did not in a great measure depend for its efficacy on their voluntary cooperation; in which case they would indirectly secure their object. The existing confederacy proved that where the Acts of the Gen^l Gov^t were to be executed by the particular Gov^ts the latter had a weight in proportion to their importance. No one would say that either in Cong^s or out of Cong^s. Delaware had equal weight with Pennsylv^a. If the latter was to supply ten times as much money as the former, and no compulsion could be used, it was of ten times more importance, that she should voluntarily furnish the supply. In the Dutch confederacy the votes of the Provinces were equal. But Holland which supplies about half the money, governed the whole republic. He enumerated the objections ag^st an equality of votes in the 2^d branch, notwithstanding the proportional representation in the first. 1. the minority could negative the will of the majority of the people. 2. they could extort measures by making them a condition of their assent to other necessary measures. 3. they could obtrude measures on the majority by virtue of the peculiar powers which would be vested in the Senate. 4. the evil instead of being cured by time, would increase with every new State that should be admitted, as they must all be admitted on the principle of equality. 5. the perpetuity it would give to the preponderance of the Northⁿ ag^st the Southⁿ Scale was a serious consideration. It seemed now to be pretty well understood that the real difference of interests lay, not between the large & small but between the N. & Southⁿ States. The institution of slavery & its consequences formed the line of discrimination. There were 5 States on the South, 8 on the Northⁿ side of this line. Should a proport^l representation take place it was true, the N. side would still outnumber the other; but not in the same degree, at this time; and every day would tend towards an equilibrium.