The Committee then rose & the House adjourned to 11 OC tomw.
Wednesday June 6th In Committee of the Whole.
Mr Pinkney according to previous notice & rule obtained, moved "that the first branch of the national Legislature be elected by the State Legislatures, and not by the people;" contending that the people were less fit Judges in such a case, and that the Legislatures would be less likely to promote the adoption of the new Government, if they were to be excluded from all share in it.
Mr Rutlidge 2ded the motion.
Mr Gerry.[68] Much depends on the mode of election. In England the people will probably lose their liberty from the smallness of the proportion having a right of suffrage. Our danger arises from the opposite extreme: hence in Massts the worst men get into the Legislature. Several members of that Body had lately been convicted of infamous crimes. Men of indigence, ignorance & baseness, spare no pains, however dirty to carry their point agst men who are superior to the artifices practised. He was not disposed to run into extremes. He was as much principled as ever agst aristocracy and monarchy. It was necessary on the one hand that the people should appoint one branch of the Govt in order to inspire them with the necessary confidence. But he wished the election on the other to be so modified as to secure more effectually a just preference of merit. His idea was that the people should nominate certain persons in certain districts, out of whom the State Legislatures shd make the appointment.
[ [68] "Mr. Gerry.—If the national legislature are appointed by the state legislatures, demagogues and corrupt members will creep in."—Yates's Secret Debates in Forming the Constitution, 105.
Mr Wilson. He wished for vigor in the Govt, but he wished that vigorous authority to flow immediately from the legitimate source of all authority. The Govt ought to possess not only 1st the force, but 2dly the mind or sense of the people at large. The Legislature ought to be the most exact transcript of the whole Society. Representation is made necessary only because it is impossible for the people to act collectively. The opposition was to be expected he said from the Governments, not from the Citizens of the States. The latter had parted as was observed (by Mr King) with all the necessary powers; and it was immaterial to them, by whom they were exercised, if well exercised. The State officers were to be the losers of power. The people he supposed would be rather more attached to the national Govt than to the State Govts as being more important in itself, and more flattering to their pride. There is no danger of improper elections if made by large districts. Bad elections proceed from the smallness of the districts which give an opportunity to bad men to intrigue themselves into office.
Mr Sherman. If it were in view to abolish the State Govts the elections ought to be by the people. If the State Govts are to be continued, it is necessary in order to preserve harmony between the National & State Govts that the elections to the former shd be made by the latter. The right of participating in the National Govt would be sufficiently secured to the people by their election of the State Legislatures. The objects of the Union, he thought were few, 1. defence agst foreign danger, 2. agst internal disputes & a resort to force, 3. Treaties with foreign nations 4. regulating foreign commerce, & drawing revenue from it. These & perhaps a few lesser objects alone rendered a Confederation of the States necessary. All other matters civil & criminal would be much better in the hands of the States. The people are more happy in small than in large States. States may indeed be too small as Rhode Island, & thereby be too subject to faction. Some others were perhaps too large, the powers of Govt not being able to pervade them. He was for giving the General Govt power to legislate and execute within a defined province.