The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

by United States. Constitutional Convention; James Madison

Col. Mason. Under the existing Confederacy, Cong^s represent the States and not the people of the States: their acts operate on the States, not on the individuals. The case will be changed in the new plan of Gov^t. The people will be represented; they ought therefore to choose the Representatives. The requisites in actual representation are that the Rep^s should sympathize with their constituents; sh^d think as they think, & feel as they feel; and that for these purposes sh^d even be residents among them. Much he s^d had been alledged ag^st democratic elections. He admitted that much might be said; but it was to be considered that no Gov^t was free from imperfections & evils; and that improper elections in many instances were inseparable from Republican Gov^ts. But compare these with the advantage of this Form in favor of the rights of the people, in favor of human nature. He was persuaded there was a better chance for proper elections by the people, if divided into large districts, than by the State Legislatures. Paper money had been issued by the latter when the former were against it. Was it to be supposed that the State Legislatures then w^d not send to the Nat^l legislature patrons of such projects, if the choice depended on them.

M^r Madison considered an election of one branch at least of the Legislature by the people immediately, as a clear principle of free Gov^t and that this mode under proper regulations had the additional advantage of securing better representatives, as well as of avoiding too great an agency of the State Governments in the General one. He differed from the member from Connecticut (Mr. Sherman) in thinking the objects mentioned to be all the principal ones that required a National Gov^t. Those were certainly important and necessary objects; but he combined with them the necessity of providing more effectually for the security of private rights, and the steady dispensation of Justice. Interferences with these were evils which had more perhaps than anything else, produced this convention. Was it to be supposed that republican liberty could long exist under the abuses of it practised in some of the States. The gentleman (M^r Sherman) had admitted that in a very small State, faction & oppression w^d prevail. It was to be inferred then that wherever these prevailed the State was too small. Had they not prevailed in the largest as well as the smallest tho' less than in the smallest; and were we not thence admonished to enlarge the sphere as far as the nature of the Gov^t would Admit. This was the only defence ag^st the inconveniences of democracy consistent with the democratic form of Gov^t. All civilized Societies would be divided into different Sects, Factions, & interests, as they happened to consist of rich & poor, debtors & creditors, the landed, the manufacturing, the commercial interests, the inhabitants of this district or that district, the followers of this political leader or that political leader—the disciples of this religious Sect or that religious Sect. In all cases where a majority are united by a common interest or passion, the rights of the minority are in danger. What motives are to restrain them? A prudent regard to the maxim that honesty is the best policy is found by experience to be as little regarded by bodies of men as by individuals. Respect for character is always diminished in proportion to the number among whom the blame or praise is to be divided. Conscience, the only remaining tie is known to be inadequate in individuals: In large numbers, little is to be expected from it. Besides, Religion itself may become a motive to persecution & oppression. These observations are verified by the Histories of every country antient & modern. In Greece & Rome the rich & poor, the Creditors & debtors, as well as the patricians & plebeians alternately oppressed each other with equal unmercifulness. What a source of oppression was the relation between the parent cities of Rome, Athens & Carthage, & their respective provinces; the former possessing the power, & the latter being sufficiently distinguished to be separate objects of it? Why was America so justly apprehensive of Parliamentary injustice? Because G. Britain had a separate interest real or supposed, & if her authority had been admitted, could have pursued that interest at our expence. We have seen the mere distinction of colour made in the most enlightened period of time, a ground of the most oppressive dominion ever exercised by man over man. What has been the source of those unjust laws complained of among ourselves? Has it not been the real or supposed interest of the major number? Debtors have defrauded their creditors. The landed interest has borne hard on the mercantile interest. The Holders of one species of property have thrown a disproportion of taxes on the holders of another species. The lesson we are to draw from the whole is that where a majority are united by a common sentiment, and have an opportunity, the rights of the minor party become insecure. In a Republican Gov^t the majority if united have always an opportunity. The only remedy is to enlarge the sphere, & thereby divide the community into so great a number of interests & parties, that in the 1^st place a majority will not be likely at the same moment to have a common interest separate from that of the whole or of the minority; and in the 2^d place that in case they sh^d have such an interest, they may not be apt to unite in the pursuit of it. It was incumbent on us then to try this remedy, and with that view to frame a republican system on such a scale & in such a form as will controul all the evils w^ch have been experienced.

M^r Dickinson considered it essential that one branch of the Legislature sh^d be drawn immediately from the people; and as expedient that the other sh^d be chosen by the Legislatures of the States. This combination of the State Gov^ts with the national Gov^t was as politic as it was unavoidable. In the formation of the Senate we ought to carry it through such a refining process as will assimilate it as nearly as may be to the House of Lords in England. He repeated his warm eulogiums on the British Constitution. He was for a strong National Gov^t but for leaving the States a considerable agency in the System. The objection ag^st making the former dependent on the latter might be obviated by giving to the Senate an authority permanent & irrevocable for three, five or seven years. Being thus independent they will check & decide with becoming freedom.

M^r Read. Too much attachment is betrayed to the State Govern^ts. We must look beyond their continuance. A national Gov^t must soon of necessity swallow all of them up. They will soon be reduced to the mere office of electing the National Senate. He was ag^st patching up the old federal System: he hoped the idea w^d be dismissed. It would be like putting new cloth on an old garment. The confederation was founded on temporary principles. It cannot last: it can not be amended. If we do not establish a good Gov^t on new principles, we must either go to ruin, or have the work to do over again. The people at large are wrongly suspected of being averse to a Gen^l Gov^t. The aversion lies among interested men who possess their confidence.

M^r Pierce[69] was for an election by the people as to the 1^st branch & by the States as to the 2^d branch; by which means the Citizens of the States w^d be represented both individually & collectively.

[ [69] "My own character I shall not attempt to draw, but leave those who may choose to speculate on it, to consider it in any light that their fancy or imagination may depict. I am conscious of having discharged my duty as a Soldier through the course of the late revolution with honor and propriety; and my services in Congress and the Convention were bestowed with the best intention towards the interest of Georgia, and towards the general welfare of the Confederacy. I possess ambition, and it was that, and the flattering opinion which some of my Friends had of me, that gave me a seat in the wisest Council in the World, and furnished me with an opportunity of giving these short Sketches of the Characters who composed it."—Pierce's Notes, Amer. Hist. Rev., iii., 334.

General Pinkney wished to have a good National Gov^t & at the same time to leave a considerable share of power in the States. An election of either branch by the people scattered as they are in many States, particularly in S. Carolina was totally impracticable. He differed from gentlemen who thought that a choice by the people w^d be a better guard ag^st bad measures, than by the Legislatures. A majority of the people in S. Carolina were notoriously for paper-money as a legal tender; the Legislature had refused to make it a legal tender. The reason was that the latter had some sense of character and were restrained by that consideration. The State Legislatures also he said would be more jealous, & more ready to thwart the National Gov^t, if excluded from a participation in it. The Idea of abolishing these Legislatures w^d never go down.

M^r Wilson would not have spoken again, but for what had fallen from Mr. Read; namely, that the idea of preserving the State Gov^ts ought to be abandoned. He saw no incompatibility between the national & State Gov^ts provided the latter were restrained to certain local purposes; nor any probability of their being devoured by the former. In all confederated Systems antient & modern the reverse had happened; the Generality being destroyed gradually by the usurpations of the parts composing it.

On the question for electing the 1^st branch by the State Legislatures as moved by M^r Pinkney: it was negatived:

Mass. no. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.