EXTRACTS FROM THE TESTIMONY OF DEFENDANT GEBHARDT[[42]]
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Dr. Seidl: The experiments on Polish internees were carried out in such a way that, first of all, three series of experiments were performed on three groups of 12 persons each. Is that correct?
Defendant Gebhardt: Yes. What I wanted to solve by means of this second experimental group was the task given me in my orders, namely, the testing of the drugs prescribed. I definitely hoped in these experiments, which produced gangrene, that if there was anything in the sulfanilamide drugs, which I had reason to hope, then the advantages connected with one or the other drug would become apparent, and I would be able to discontinue the experiments. Of course, I could not stop at the initial instructions. I really had to go on to a localized and definite infection, and for that there is an internationally known precept, not discovered by us, which is to produce a locus minoris resistentia—that is to say, the place of least resistance—where germs combine with contact substances. So we did not insert dirt, glass, or earth, cruelly; the dirt in the wound was represented by sterile glass silicate; soil and textiles which would enter a wound were replaced by us through sterile cellulose, finely ground. You all know that if you cut yourself and a nonsterile piece of glass remains in the wound, if you do not move the spot, it will heal with the glass inside without any aggravated symptoms. The only effect it has is to produce a catalysis for the germs and a local obstruction to the flow of blood, and possibly to damage a few cells slightly. In other words, we produced inflammation in the safest way possible for such an experiment. That is an unquestionable scientific train of thought in this sphere. We proceeded in just that manner and in addition, we gave our sulfanilamide, or zeibazol 1., eleutron, and nitron. Two control persons, however, were not without protection, because they were taken care of in the old established way.
Now, don’t suggest that I should know the schedule or that there was some schedule regarding the supply of sulfanilamide used. A schedule is always bad in medicine because it is no longer original. One thing is characteristic, however, with sulfanilamides and that is that you give a big dose at the beginning, and here there is a question of whether it is correct to introduce it locally or to leave it open. Someone might mix it, somebody else might have a different combination and that is how we did it. I would be a bad scientist if I were to write down for you now that I knew exactly that they were all given in a certain manner on the third day, or that they are all like this and this now. It states expressly in Thomas’ statement, of course, that any prearranged table for the administration is wrong, and that we also cannot prescribe the correct way to apply these drugs. It was obviously clear that there was a strong impression made by sulfanilamides and, even in the first group, we were astonished to find a certain result, which is useful for the idea as such, but not for practical purposes. Among other things we immediately and simultaneously sprinkled a mixture of germs together with sulfanilamide powder into the wound. That was the only exception made in the first group and it didn’t produce any results at all. Now, if I were a bad scientist then I would have assumed that that, in itself, was a success. No matter whether it was the ultrasepsis or the powder we had used, I would have been satisfied, and I would have said, “Everybody now has to take a little bag of sulfanilamide along with him and powder the wounds with it immediately because we know that if they are inserted simultaneously into the wound—the germ and the drug—then there will be no inflammation.” Only in complete ignorance of wound conditions and war conditions could one adopt that point of view. The disadvantage of the sulfanilamide bag is that a man who is badly shot isn’t in a position to act; he would be lying somewhere badly wounded and not be able to do anything. On the other hand, of course, the position is that the surface of the wound can easily be powdered, but of course not right down to the very bottom of the wound, and we know particularly well that sulfanilamides when applied wrongly in this way have caused injury.
Q. The second group consisted of the 36 women, 3 times 12 women?
A. Yes. Infection, plus contact materials.
Q. Is it true that the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz, on 3 September 1942, when inspecting Ravensbrueck, demanded that the experimental conditions had to be made more severe in order to create conditions similar to wartime conditions?
A. At the beginning of September, on the basis of my report, I was called to Grawitz to report on the results which might be expected. Grawitz, and as I shall explain later, Stumpfegger, came to me at the beginning of September. Since Grawitz was coming to Ravensbrueck I turned up on the same day, so that Fischer could demonstrate the patients under my protection. That is the impression probably created repeatedly by the testimony of witnesses; they have to wait for a time, and then I say “These are the patients whom I operated on.” I assume the same description was given each time. Grawitz was able to prove to me that the effects were circumscribed and not of a war nature. And he was able to prove to me that I had obtained no clear medical information, only assumptions, and the clinical conditions resulting might perhaps be expected after surgery at home. For another reason, which can be seen from the documents, the argument became rather violent. Grawitz turned to Fischer, who presented the cases to him. At any rate he then said, unfortunately, that a speedy clarification had to be reached and that wounds similar to combat wounds had to be created, that is, a gunshot wound infected by earth and matter. Of course, I did not accept these conditions and I looked for some way to get the experiment into my own hands so that, using all safeguards, a higher degree of infection might be brought about, and the cases might still remain under my control. I did not want to give up and say, “I have not reached any conclusion,” thereby impliedly giving permission for wounds similar to combat wounds to be inflicted elsewhere. And so we arrived at the idea of tying off the arteries of the third group, which is also a customary means of bringing about a locus minoris resistentiae in international experimental technique.
Q. You did not carry out the order then?