Q. Professor, will you please look at Document NO-121, Prosecution Exhibit 293? It is a letter from you to Professor Hirt, dated 15 [13] November 1943. Did you mean this letter when you say that you wrote to Hirt? I shall read briefly:
“On the 13th of November 1943, an inspection was made of the prisoners who were furnished to me by the SS-WVHA, in order to determine their suitability for the tests which have been planned for typhus vaccines.”
Is this the letter?
A. Yes. This is the letter of 13 November 1943. I may point out in this letter that I asked for a hundred prisoners in good physical condition. Only in this way could I expect results which could be used for purposes of comparison.
Q. Professor, I have something to put to you from this document which is perhaps a contradiction—or which may be interpreted as a contradiction—of your testimony. You say that you wanted to vaccinate these people and the first sentence of the document seems to indicate that. You write, “their suitability for the typhus vaccinations.” Further down, however, in the document you speak of testing a new vaccine. Again, further down, “material which can be compared.” One might conclude that these are not vaccinations but experiments. Is this not in contradiction of your testimony?
A. No. That is not in contradiction of my statements. It is apparently necessary for me to supplement my statements by saying the following: as I said, in the Natzweiler camp I wanted to vaccinate a fairly large number of prisoners. The vaccine was ready as far as the laboratory was concerned; it had been tested in animal experiments; it had been tested in self-experiments, and on a small group of volunteers. I, therefore, knew that it no longer involved any danger for the persons vaccinated and that the use of this living vaccine did not bring about any manifest disease. But when a new vaccine is used for the first time in practice it is to a certain degree an experiment, since the tolerance still has to be determined and that can only be determined on a large number of people. The dose still has to be determined and the result of the vaccination still has to be checked on a large number of people. So I admit it is no doubt true that the use of a new vaccine for the first time in practice on a large number of people could still be considered an experiment. I should like to add that in the first large-scale application the titer values and blood were examined. Of course, temperature was taken and all other observations were carefully made in order to get a definite final impression of the effectiveness and tolerance of the vaccine. We had to do this; it was our duty. It was a big responsibility to introduce a new vaccine like this, even if one had already gained experience in a small experiment on oneself and volunteers. But in this trial the word, “experiment,” has been grossly misused. In this sense our vaccinations were not “experiments”, they were tests and not experiments with any uncertain goal or purpose. One can hardly speak of criminal experiments here. And in every medical journal in the world, on almost every page, we find experiments at the sick bed, and I don’t think anyone has any objection to this word. And as far as human experiments are concerned, I should like to refer to advertisements which show the public attitude of an American firm—in picture magazines which I have seen myself. Antiseptics such as Listerine, where they speak of human beings on whom tests have been made, who were used as guinea pigs. For this reason alone I think the word; “experiment”, is used in different senses.
Q. One term has not yet been cleared in this document, the last words, “comparable material.” Can you please explain what that means? What did you mean by “comparable material”?
A. That means that the investigations indicated had already been made and that the results were to be compared with one another, so that one could have really useful results. The individual values of every immunologist vary considerably according to the constitution and general physical condition. That was one of the reasons why I was very careful to obtain only those persons in good physical condition for vaccination, since persons in a poor condition react quite differently. Besides, I must point out that according to the general vaccination regulations, vaccinations of any type can only be performed on healthy people, and I wanted to observe this rule strictly.
Dr. Tipp: Now, Witness, I turn to the next document, NO-122, Prosecution Exhibit 298. It is a letter from Rose to you dated 13 December 1943. In this letter the frequently mentioned Copenhagen vaccine is again mentioned. Herr Rose writes here that the testing of many vaccines simultaneously gives a clearer picture of better or worse results of a method than the testing of one vaccine alone. Furthermore, there is mention of the experiments in Buchenwald. Let me ask you first of all, Professor, when you received this letter in December 1943, what did you know about these Buchenwald experiments?