Q. We now come to the question as to why you became a Party member and a Gau Leader [Gaufuehrer] of the NSRB. Those are phases of your political life during which you participated actually and formally in the NSDAP. Can you explain why you first became a Party member?
A. For reasons of full conviction I became a Party member in 1933, because at that time this party appeared to me to be more united and less split up than the other, earlier parties; and in 1934 or 1935 when Gauleiter Kaufmann approached me and asked me to take over the Gau leadership of the NSRB, I had already gained my first impressions and experiences in the struggle between the administration of justice and the Party. It has been emphasized here time and again how, during the first period, after the revolution of 1933, every Kreisleiter attempted to interfere in court proceedings; the Gestapo tried to revise sentences, and it is known how the NSRB tried to gain influence with the Gauleiter and Reichsstatthalter in order to act against the administration of justice. In this respect I gained very bad impressions in Hamburg with the Gaufuehrer at this time of the NSRB, Dr. Haecke. The Reichsstatthalter removed him from office and asked me to take his place, and I do not regret having taken that step because only owing to the fact that I myself held that office, I was in a position to eliminate attacks on the part of the Party against the administration of justice from the outset. And that may only have been possible because I had a Reichsstatthalter in Hamburg who was smart enough and objective enough to realize pretty soon that any fight against the administration of justice can only lead to the destruction of the state itself. I gained influence on the man particularly by two events. First, because at the first opportunity when the attempt was made to put an incapable man in charge of a penal institution, I refused to do so. I asked to be sent on leave and asked him to assure me that that man would be removed. The case was mentioned here again—a man by the name of Laatz.
Q. I shall submit an affidavit about that case.
A. To describe the attitude of the Reichsstatthalter in Hamburg, it is important also to stress that the mayor of Hamburg today, who, after the surrender in 1945 was appointed officially and publicly expressed his gratitude for the calm and objective attitude displayed by Reichsstatthalter Kaufmann during all these years in Hamburg. It belongs to the same field that 2 years later I took over the Gau legal office and thereby excluded any competition; and it belongs to the same complex of questions that during the same year my membership in the Party was put down as 850,000, which gave me a possibility to stand up more strongly against the so-called “old fighters” [Alte Kaempfer—earliest Nazi Party members]. On account of the identity, of course, between president of the district court of appeals and Gaufuehrer, I was envied by all other district court of appeals because they continually had to struggle against the Party while I was saved this struggle.
Q. How long did you hold these offices?
A. I held these offices until August 1942 when I was transferred to Berlin; then the Gau legal office was dissolved; and the office of the Gaufuehrer of the NSRB, I gave up.
Q. Then, you became deputy [Under Secretary in the Reich Ministry of Justice] in Berlin.
A. Yes, I became deputy in Berlin until December 1943.
Q. What was your attitude toward the SD in Hamburg; could you tell us something about that? I am referring to Document NG-825, Prosecution Exhibit 433,[226] in that connection.
A. The SD in Hamburg during the first few years had a bad selection of personnel. There was the usual system of informers; I was spied upon; the Reichsstatthalter was spied upon and that led to their removal. The Reichsstatthalter, when he found out about that, removed the entire personnel from office from Hamburg. The new men whom he appointed, as far as they were concerned with matters of administration of justice, came to me in 1939. In the meantime, the directive had been sent down from the Reich Ministry of Justice to the effect that the SD should be considered and used as a source of information of the state by agencies of the administration of justice; and here also I was independent to nominate individuals who would not submit reports intended to go against the interests of the administration of justice, but who themselves were in favor and sympathy with the principles of the administration of justice, and that is the basis for the conference with the SD Fuehrer in Hamburg which is contained in NG-825, the fact that I made suggestions to nominate men who were judges and whom I knew would never submit reports which were against the administration of justice. Since that time, also in Hamburg, no SD informer appeared in court proceedings, and, as far as I know, no reports were submitted which were against the administration of justice.