Wednesday, April 25.
Provisional Army.
The Speaker having declared the question on the bill from the Senate for the raising of a provisional army, viz: "Shall this bill be rejected?" to be first in order before the House,
Mr. McDowell said, upon further consideration, and conceiving that gentlemen might wish to see the contents of the despatches of our Ministers, which had been mentioned, before they gave their vote on this occasion, he should withdraw his opposition to the second reading of the bill.
The bill was then read a second time; and a motion being made to commit it to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union,
Mr. Lyon called for the yeas and nays; but only himself and another member rising in support of the motion, it was not carried.
The bill was then referred.
Department of the Navy.
Mr. Harper called for the order of the day on the bill for establishing an Executive department, to be denominated The Department of the Navy. The House accordingly went into a Committee of the Whole on this bill, and rose without making any amendment in the bill; but, upon the question, in the House, of its passing to a third reading,
Mr. Gallatin said, he had not proposed any amendment to this bill in the Committee of the Whole, because, what he had to say upon it, would go against the principle of the bill. He did not think it necessary to establish a Navy Department. He did not suppose our Army and Navy were at present so large as to require two separate departments. If the business was so much increased as that the persons at present employed could not do it, they might be increased. Nor did he believe, with some gentlemen, that such an institution would produce economy; on the contrary, he always found that the increase of officers was the increase of expense. Some time ago, it was said that great economy would arise from appointing a Purveyor of Supplies; but he had seen, from the time of this establishment, a great and constant increase of expense, in every thing which relates to supplies. Not seeing the necessity of it, therefore, he should vote against it, except good reason should be given for it; for he believed, the moment a department of this kind was established, the head of it would wish to make it of as great importance as possible, by endeavors to extend the object of his superintendence. He called for the yeas and nays upon the question, which were agreed to be taken.
Mr. J. Williams did not feel disposed to vote for this bill. It appeared to him that the Secretary of War, with officers under him, would be sufficient for the management of our naval concerns also. It was some time after the constitution was framed before the War Department was established. Whenever an office was established, something was always found for it to do. Soon after the War Department was established we had an Indian war; and after that Indian war ceased, another establishment was made under the name of the Accountant's Office. If the business was increased, new clerks might be employed, but he should be against any new department. If we were engaged in hostilities, and our naval power of course increased, such an establishment might be necessary; but at present he did not think it necessary, nor did he think our revenue equal to the support of a Navy which should require such an establishment to take care of it. If this office was to superintend the construction of vessels, persons acquainted with this business might be employed under the Secretary of War. The present expense of the War Department was $18,250 a year; and though there would not be much to do in this new office, he supposed the expense would not be much less; and, besides, Congress would be importuned, from session to session, to increase our naval force. Mr. W. said he was desirous of making every defence for our country, yet he wished to keep down our expenses as much as possible. If circumstances called for going further into the business of the Navy, he should not object to it.
Mr. Sewall said, when the House was considering any subject relative to the increase of the Navy, complaints were made of the enormous expenses and of the little responsibility which attends the business; and when it has been said that the greatness of the expense might have arisen from a want of knowledge in the persons who had the care of the business, it was said that defect ought to be remedied. This department is intended to do that, and, by the expense of a few hundred dollars, he had no doubt thousands would be saved. When talking about vessels, it was complained that too great an expense was incurred on this object; now it is said there is no object for the proposed officer to attend to. But the gentleman from New York (Mr. Williams) was afraid, if this office was established, it would be the means of increasing the Navy. This certainly could not be done, contrary to the will of Congress.
He thought there were obvious reasons for the establishment of this department. It was well known that an officer might be well acquainted with the business of the army, without knowing any thing about a navy; and a man employed at the head of such a department ought to have some knowledge of the business committed to his care. Mr. S. said, however well the present Secretary of War might be acquainted with army concerns, he believed he was not conversant with naval matters. In consequence of this, he had a number of agents employed under him. Indeed, the War Department had so much business on its hands, as not to be able to pay a sufficient attention to our naval establishment. He therefore believed it was necessary to make this new establishment, especially as the Navy Department was likely to be considerably augmented.
Mr. S. Smith believed, after all the struggles which had been made on this subject, it would at length be found necessary for the United States seriously to turn their attention to the establishment of an efficient naval force; and the sooner gentlemen could bring their minds to this, the better it would be for the general good. If this proposition had been brought forward at the commencement of the session, he should have thought it unnecessary; but, from the increase which had been made during this session, he thought the establishment proper. $950,000 had been appropriated for providing twelve vessels; a number of galleys were also contemplated. A ship of war or schooner, it appears, has been built on the lakes, and some galleys on the rivers. These, with the frigates and cutters, form an establishment which will require a naval man to superintend it. An expenditure of two millions of dollars, he supposed, would be authorized this session; and a man knowing something of naval architecture will be able to save more, in the course of this year, to the United States, than will pay ten years of the expenses of this office. A merchant going into the building of vessels without a knowledge of the business will find the truth of this fact. The great expenditure attending the building of the frigates, he supposed had been chiefly owing to the want of such an establishment as the present. The gentleman from New York had stated the expense of the War Department at $18,250; but one-half of that expense was incurred in the office of the Accountant of the War Department; and as there would be no need of a new Accountant, the expense could not be doubled. The duties of the War Department are greatly increased, and might be further increased during the present session; and an expenditure of the kind proposed might save the throwing away of thousands of dollars.
Mr. Macon said, the arguments in favor of this bill were derived from a want of knowledge of naval affairs in the War Department. He thought that might be supplied without the establishment of a new department; but he believed the building of the frigates had mostly been carried on under the direction of the captains who were to have the command of them. More clerks had been added to the War Department, in consideration of the business which the Navy had occasioned. He believed the more officers were appointed, the more money would be expended.
Mr. Otis said, the gentleman from New York had opposed this bill on different grounds from the gentleman from Pennsylvania. He did not make any reply to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, because he expected opposition from him and some others, to every measure which had the defence of the country for its object; and, as the session was drawing to a close, he thought it best to have as little debate as possible, and that the sooner the question was taken the better; but when he saw a gentleman rise in opposition to it, upon whose support he calculated, he was apprehensive lest it might have an effect upon other persons on whose support he also relied. The gentleman from New York seemed to apprehend some new and heavy expense was to be incurred, and that some greater caution was now necessary than heretofore. What saving, then, does he mean to make by opposing the establishment of this office? Since he supposes the same clerks will be sufficient, it will only be the salary of the chief officer, which, Mr. O. supposed, would be $3,500—a greater saving than that which would be made by such a person in every ship built or purchased. Taking the expense of our Naval Establishment at one million dollars a year, it would only be an expense of one-third per cent., which every one must allow was a mere trifle, to have the money of the public well expended. The services of the War and Navy Departments were, he said, perfectly distinct. The duties of the War Department became every day more arduous, and whatever gentlemen may think, they must become still more so. This opposition coming from a friend, he could not suppose it arose from a bad motive, but merely from a narrow conception of what is conceived to be the agricultural interest. Agriculture and commerce, said Mr. O., are twin sisters, and cannot live separate from each other; they must live together, or expire at the same moment. It was the duty of gentlemen representing agriculturists thus to speak to their constituents. It was an axiom realized by every politician in the world. The fact was, that every thing spent upon the Naval Department was so much saved, in which the agricultural part of the country partake very largely.
Mr. T. Claiborne never remembered to have heard such language as had fallen from the gentleman last up. He laments, said Mr. C., that a gentleman who usually voted with him should dare to think for himself. Are gentlemen's opinions and language thus to be circumscribed? [Mr. O. explained.] Mr. C. continued, the gentleman was willing that all questions should now be taken without debate. Does this mean, said he, that there are a majority of members in this House who must always be in the right, and a minority always in the wrong? If this be the case, they had better dismiss the minority, and do the business themselves. Were not gentlemen any longer to express their difference of opinion? Would this be the way to keep the Government together, or to preserve harmony in the country? If this were to be the situation of things, he should regret it with tears in his eyes. He had himself no mathematical certainty that any opinion of his was right; nor did he think the gentleman from Massachusetts ought to expect men to bow to his. Such an assumption led to mischief of a serious kind. What! to say we have a majority, and therefore we will have no debate. [The Speaker said no such expression had been made use of; if it had, he should have checked it.] Had it not been for an expression of this kind, he should not have risen on this question. He wished to hear every man deliver his opinion freely. Mr. C. did not believe the bill to be a proper one, and he should therefore vote against it.
Mr. McDowell said, he should be opposed to the bill, if he had no other objection to it than that it went to countenance the idea, according to the gentlemen from Maryland and Massachusetts, that this country must go into the establishment of a large naval power. The great saving to be derived from this office, he understood to be from savings in the building of vessels; but, as the twelve vessels which were lately voted are proposed to be purchased, ready built, he supposed this reason did not apply at present. If there was no intention, therefore, (which he trusted there was not,) of carrying our Naval Establishment to any considerable extent, he could see no occasion for the creation of this office. For, if this Secretary of the Navy was appointed, he would also be obliged to rely upon others, in a great degree, for information.
Mr. Harper said, the naval defence which this House thought necessary for the service of the country having been voted, he could not agree with those gentlemen who consider this as a question of defence. He thought it a question of economy, and, in this view, he should reply to some observations which had been made upon it.
He believed our naval defence would be much more efficaciously and speedily provided by means of the proposed establishment than if the bill was rejected. So far, indeed, it is a question of defence, but only collaterally so. The point of view in which this bill should be considered, is simply this: will it not effect with more speed and economy the marine defence now existing, as well as that contemplated? He himself had no doubt as to the fact. Indeed, he would ask the gentleman from North Carolina, whether, if he were about to erect a distillery on his place, he would employ his overseer to do it, who, though he might understand the business of his farm very well, knew nothing of building. He certainly would not; and if this would be bad policy in an individual, it would be equally so in a nation. Besides, the expense would be so trifling as only to amount (as had been stated) to one-third per cent., though traders were in the habit of paying five per cent. to have their business done.
But it was said, that if an office of this kind was established, it would soon create business. But the business is already created. We have, said he, already a marine of fifteen ships of war. This, he knew, was comparatively a small force, but in the establishment of which we shall yet expend two millions of dollars, and the support of which will amount at least to $700,000 or $800,000 annually. When the War Department was first established, the object of its care was not, he believed, of equal magnitude.
Mr. R. Williams was ready to acknowledge he did not believe it could ever be the interest of this country to go into the establishment of a large naval power, and therefore he should not be in favor of the present bill on that ground. Nor did he think there was any good reason for dividing the military and naval business, except there was more than could be attended to by the present establishment. But it was said the business was of a different nature, and therefore it ought to be in separate departments, as one man cannot be supposed to understand both concerns. That objection would apply to any of the other departments; and whenever this rule of dividing business shall be adopted, we shall get men of inferior talents to do it. When the Government was established, it was thought that a War Department would be equal to the military and naval concerns of this country. But it was said a navy was not then thought of; it was, however, doubtless thought of when the frigates were ordered to be built, and it was not then gone into. It was, however, said that much money had been lost for want of an officer of this kind. This was mere assertion, and it was by no means clear that the business would be done better with such an officer than without him.
But it was said, it was necessary to go into this measure for the sake of appearances. To whom are these appearances to be made? Not to our own people, but to European nations. The gentleman from Massachusetts says we ought to adopt their opinion upon this subject. He viewed a policy of this kind the most fatal of any other to this country. He believed that the less we had to do with European politics, and their mode of administration, the better. The only object in view, with that House, ought to be the interest of their own country. What, said he, is the situation of those countries which have gone into the establishment of large navies? They are involved in debt which they never can, and never will, pay.
Mr. J. Williams said, the only point in dispute was, whether a separate office should be established for the business of the Navy, or whether it should be put under the care of a superintendent in the War Department. He wished the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Otis) had spared his observations until he had heard those of the gentleman from Maryland, (Mr. S. Smith.) It had appeared to him that a superintendent in the War Department would have been sufficient, and he yet thought so. He did not think the business of the Navy was so great as to require a separate establishment. There was more business in the War Department in 1794 than at present, and nothing was then heard of a new department. He should not have opposed this measure if he had not been convinced that every measure taken to increase the Navy beyond its present establishment would have a bad effect on this country. It had been proposed last winter to purchase all the live-oak timber in the Southern States; afterwards a proposition was brought forward for the establishment of navy yards. Those measures had been defeated, and they were now called upon to establish a new department for this favorite object. He was not willing to do it. The gentleman from Massachusetts said there would only be a difference between making a new office, and continuing to do the business in the War Department, of the salary of the chief officer; but if he looked at the second clause of the bill, he would find himself mistaken, as there was in that provision for a principal clerk, and such other clerks as he shall judge necessary: so that he may have a clerk for every port in the Union, if he pleases. If he represented, as the gentleman from Massachusetts does, a commercial interest, he might be as favorable to a Navy as him; but as that was not the case, he was opposed to it. He gave his approbation to such appropriations as he thought necessary; and if, in this instance, he differed in opinion from the gentleman from Massachusetts, he should stand excused. He believed with that gentleman, that the commercial and agricultural interests were closely connected; they differed only as to the extent to which it was proper to carry our naval defence. He did not wish, however, at present, to reject the bill. He believed it might be amended, and he had no objection to the question being postponed for that purpose.
Mr. Livingston said, he was almost tempted to smile at the arrogant pretensions of some gentlemen in this House, in their treatment of others, at least their equals on this floor, whatever they might be out of doors, being equally with them Representatives of the people. They were told by the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Otis) that opposition was expected, was looked for, from certain gentlemen; that no argument was necessary on the occasion, because those members who were opposed to all measures of defence, would oppose this measure also; but that those who had originated the measure would carry it into effect. This simple declaration of a strength of party was also attended with a very handsome rebuke of one of his colleagues (Mr. J. Williams) for having dared to doubt the propriety of the measure before the committee. He was happy to find this rebuke had produced its effect, and that though his colleague was at first very decidedly against the bill, he was now disposed to doubt; and the effect of another rebuke, he supposed, would obtain his vote in favor of the new establishment. For his own part, neither the rebuke, nor the preliminary observations with which it was accompanied, had produced any effect upon him. He did very much doubt the propriety of the measure; for, although there was a great deal of business in the War Office, and the same person could not be supposed to be acquainted with military and naval affairs, if a ship-builder was to have the appointment, he could not think such a person fit to be one of the great council of the nation; and it must be recollected that the person who holds this office will become one of the counsellors of the President on all great concerns.
It was said that this establishment was necessary, in order to give an appearance of defence to Europe, as if the establishment of a Department of the Navy was to have the effect to do away all our past and to prevent future injuries. But our appearance to Europe was not all; the example of European countries was mentioned. All were said to have a Marine Department. The practice of Europe, Mr. L. said, had proved itself to be a bad one, as the navies of those countries had proved the ruin of them.
The yeas and nays were taken upon this bill going to its third reading, and decided in the affirmative—yeas 47, nays 41, as follows:
Yeas.—John Allen, Bailey Bartlett, James A. Bayard, Christopher G. Champlin, John Chapman, James Cochran, Joshua Coit, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, John Dennis, George Dent, Thomas Evans, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Jonathan Freeman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, William Hindman, Hezekiah L. Hosmer, James H. Imlay, Samuel Lyman, James Machir, William Matthews, Daniel Morgan, Lewis R. Morris, Harrison G. Otis, Josiah Parker, Thomas Pinckney, John Read, John Rutledge, jun., James Schureman, Samuel Sewall, William Shepard, Thomas Sinnickson, Thompson J. Skinner, Nathaniel Smith, Samuel Smith, Peleg Sprague, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, Thomas Tillinghast, John E. Van Allen, and Peleg Wadsworth.
Nays.—Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Lemuel Benton, Thomas Blount, Richard Brent, Nathan Bryan, Stephen Bullock, Thomas Claiborne, William Charles Cole Claiborne, Matthew Clay, Thomas T. Davis, John Dawson, Lucas Elmendorph, William Findlay, John Fowler, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Carter B. Harrison, Jonathan N. Havens, Joseph Heister, David Holmes, Walter Jones, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, Matthew Lyon, Nathaniel Macon, Blair McClenachan, Joseph McDowell, John Milledge, Anthony New, William Smith, Richard Sprigg, jun., Richard Stanford, Thomas Sumter, Abram Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, John Williams, and Robert Williams.[31]