Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 13

by Various

Morning Session

[The witness Emil Puhl took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?

EMIL PUHL (Witness): Emil Johann Rudolf Puhl.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SAUTER: Witness Puhl, you were formerly Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: If I am correctly informed, you were a member of the Directorate of the Reichsbank already at the time of Dr. Schacht?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When Dr. Schacht left, you were one of the few gentlemen who remained in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: You were then named by Hitler, on the suggestion of the Defendant Funk, to be Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When was that?

PUHL: During the year 1939.

DR. SAUTER: During the year 1939. You have said that you were Managing Vice President, and I presume this was due to the fact that banking was not the special field of the Defendant Funk while you were a banking expert, and that Funk in addition had charge of the Reich Ministry of Economics. Is that correct?

PUHL: Yes, but there was another reason, namely, the division of authority between official business on one side, and the handling of personnel on the other.

DR. SAUTER: The actual conduct of business was apparently your responsibility?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Hence, the title Managing Vice President?

PUHL: Yes. May I make a few comments on this?

DR. SAUTER: Only if it is necessary in the interests of the case.

PUHL: Yes. The business of the Directorate of the Reichsbank was divided among a number of members of the Directorate. Every member had full responsibility for his own sphere. The Vice President was the primus inter pares, his main task was to act as chairman at meetings to represent the President in the outside world and to deal with problems of general economic and banking policy.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Defendant Funk referred to you as a witness as early as December. You know that, don’t you? And accordingly, you were interrogated at the camp where you are now accommodated, I believe in Baden-Baden...

PUHL: Near Baden-Baden.

DR. SAUTER: ...interrogated on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Two days later you were again interrogated?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know why the matters on which you were questioned on 3 May were not dealt with during the interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: I have before me the affidavit dated 3 May.

DR. SAUTER: 3 May. That deals with these business affairs with the SS.

PUHL: Yes. But I was questioned on this subject already on 1 May, only very briefly, and on 3 May there was a second interrogation for the purpose of discussing it in more detail.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not mention these business affairs of the Reichsbank with the SS during your interrogation on 1 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did you mention them?

PUHL: A short statement was made.

DR. SAUTER: During the interrogation of 1 May?

PUHL: Yes. At any rate, the statement on 3 May made during the interrogation was only a more detailed record of what had already been briefly discussed before.

DR. SAUTER: I have the record of your interrogation on 1 May before me; I read through it again today. But as far as I can see, it contains no mention at all of business affairs with the SS. You must be speaking now of another interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I think perhaps I can be helpful in this apparent confusion. The interrogatory which was authorized by the Tribunal was taken on 1 May, but on that same day, and independent of these interrogatories, a member of our staff also interviewed this witness. But it was a separate interview. It wasn’t related to the interrogatory, and I think that is the source of the confusion.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SAUTER: Were you interrogated twice about these transactions with the SS?

PUHL: Yes, twice during the days around 1 May; that is correct.

DR. SAUTER: Do you still remember the affidavit which you signed on 3 May?

PUHL: On 3 May, yes.

DR. SAUTER: It is the affidavit which deals with these transactions with the SS. Are your statements in this affidavit correct?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you been interrogated on these matters again since that time, since 3 May?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: When?

PUHL: Here in Nuremberg.

DR. SAUTER: When were you interrogated?

PUHL: During the last few days.

DR. SAUTER: I see. Today is Wednesday, when was it?

PUHL: Friday, Monday, Tuesday.

DR. SAUTER: Yesterday?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: On this matter?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Was a film also shown to you here?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Once or twice?

PUHL: Once.

DR. SAUTER: Had you seen this film before?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did you recognize clearly what was presented in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because, as you know, the film runs very quickly and is very short; the Prosecution showed it twice in the courtroom so that one might follow it fairly well. Did one showing suffice to make clear to you what the film contained?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then will you tell me what you saw in it, only what you saw in the film, or what you think you saw.

PUHL: Yes. The film was taken in front of the safes of our bank at Frankfurt-on-Main, the usual safes with glass doors, behind which one could see the locked cases and containers, which had apparently been deposited there. It was the usual picture presented by such strong rooms. In front of these safes were several containers which had been opened so that their contents could be seen—coins, jewelry, pearls, bank notes, clocks.

DR. SAUTER: What sort of clocks?

PUHL: Large alarm clocks.

DR. SAUTER: Nothing else? Didn’t you see anything else in the film?

PUHL: Apart from these objects?

DR. SAUTER: Apart from these, shall we say, valuables, didn’t you see anything else that is alleged to have been kept there?

PUHL: No, no.

DR. SAUTER: Only these valuables? Please go on.

PUHL: I noticed that among these valuables there were coins, apparently silver coins, and also bank notes, obviously American bank notes.

DR. SAUTER: Correct.

PUHL: It was astonishing that these things were given to us for safekeeping, because if they had come to the knowledge of our officials, then no doubt...

DR. SAUTER: Speak slowly, please.

PUHL: ...no doubt the bank notes would have been immediately turned over to the foreign exchange department, since, as is known, a general order existed for the turning in of foreign bank notes which particularly were much in demand.

Something similar applies to the coins. These, too, ought to have been transferred to the treasury in accordance with the regulations and routine of business, that is to say, they should have been purchased for the accounts of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: That is what you noticed in the film?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And nothing else?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, valuable articles entrusted to the Reichsbank for safekeeping were supposed to have been kept in the Reichsbank in that way. Now I have been asking myself whether your Reichsbank really stored the valuables entrusted to it in the manner apparent from the film and I therefore want to ask this question of you: Do you as Managing Vice President of the Reichsbank know how valuables which were handed over for safekeeping in the strong-rooms were kept, for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt, where this film was taken?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Please tell the Court.

PUHL: The outer appearance of the safe installations in Berlin was somewhat similar to that in Frankfurt, and probably similar to any other large bank. These things were known to us as “closed deposits,” a banking term, and were kept, as the name indicates, in closed containers. Space for these was provided by us and paid for by the depositors, according to the size in each case.

DR. SAUTER: Were these things kept—for instance, in Berlin or in Frankfurt—exactly as shown in the film?

PUHL: Well, I had the impression that the things of which we are now talking had been put there expressly for the purpose of taking the film.

DR. SAUTER: For the film. Do you recollect seeing a sack, which I think was shown in the film, with the label “Reichsbank Frankfurt?”

PUHL: Yes, I saw a sack labeled “Reichsbank”; I cannot say whether “Reichsbank Frankfurt.”

DR. SAUTER: As far as I know, it had “Reichsbank Frankfurt” on it. For that reason we assumed that the film was taken at Frankfurt, and the Prosecution confirmed that.

MR. DODD: I don’t like to interrupt but I think we should be careful about this statement. There have been two mistakes of some slight importance already. We didn’t show the film twice before this Tribunal and that bag doesn’t bear the legend “Frankfurt.” It simply says “Reichsbank.” And it was the Schacht film that was shown twice here, because it moved rather quickly.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you continue with your reply to the question. I can put it in this way: Did the Reichsbank keep gold articles and the like in such sacks?

PUHL: If I understand you correctly, you are asking this: When valuables were deposited with us, were they deposited in open sacks? Is that correct?

DR. SAUTER: I do not know what procedure you had.

PUHL: We at any rate had closed deposits, as the name implies. Of course, it may be a sack which is closed; that is quite possible.

DR. SAUTER: So far as I saw in banks at Munich, the things which were deposited there in increased measure during the war were without exception deposited in closed boxes or cases and the like, so that generally the bank did not know at all what was contained in the cases or boxes. Did you in the Reichsbank follow a different procedure?

PUHL: No, it was exactly the same. And the noticeable thing about this sack, as has been said, is the label “Reichsbank.” Obviously it is a sack belonging to us and not to any private person.

DR. SAUTER: Then you too, if I may repeat this to avoid any doubt, you too kept in a closed container the valuables, which had been deposited as “closed deposits.”

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Or they went to the strongboxes?

PUHL: The word “deposits” might be misleading. The closed containers went to the strong-room. The strong-room consisted of strongboxes where these cases or containers were deposited. Quite independent of that arrangement, we had the “open deposits.” Open deposits are those which by initial agreement are administered openly. The strong-rooms for these were located in quite a different part of the building from the so-called main strong-room.

DR. SAUTER: But presumably, we are not concerned here with these open deposits?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, I come to the deposits of the SS. These deposits were not in Frankfurt but presumably in Berlin in the central bank.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, will you give details about the discussions which the Defendant Funk had with you regarding the SS deposits. And may I ask you to consider your replies and search your memory very carefully before answering my questions. Naturally I shall allow you time.

First of all, what did you and the Defendant Funk discuss when you talked about these deposits of the SS for the first time?

PUHL: I refer here to my affidavit of 3 May. I had a very simple talk with Herr Funk. It turned on the request of the SS to make use of our bank installations by depositing valuables for which, it was said, there was not sufficient protection in the cellars of the SS building. Perhaps, for the sake of completeness, I may add that “SS,” in this connection, always means the Economic Department of the SS.

DR. SAUTER: What did the Defendant Funk speak of at the time? Did he specify exactly what should be accepted for safekeeping?

PUHL: He mentioned valuables which the SS had brought from the Eastern Territories, which were then in their cellars and which, above all, they requested us to keep in safety.

DR. SAUTER: But did the Defendant Funk tell you in detail what these valuables were?

PUHL: No, not in detail, but he said that in general they were gold, foreign currency, silver, and jewelry.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver, jewelry...

PUHL: To which I may add that gold and foreign currency had of course to be surrendered to the Reichsbank at any rate.

DR. SAUTER: Gold, foreign currency, silver and jewelry?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And that was supposed to have been confiscated in the Eastern Territories?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Did the Defendant Funk tell you at the time why these confiscations had been made, or who had been affected by them?

PUHL: No, that was not stated; the talk, as I have said, was brief.

DR. SAUTER: And what was your reply?

PUHL: I said that this sort of business with the SS would at least be inconvenient for us, and I voiced objections to it. I may add that we, as the Reichsbank, were always very cautious in these matters, for example, when valuables were offered us by foreign exchange control offices, customs offices, and the like.

DR. SAUTER: What was the actual reason for your objections in the case of the SS?

PUHL: Because one could not know what inconvenient consequences a business connection of this sort might produce.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, that answer does not satisfy me. Did you or the Defendant Funk not wish to have anything to do with the SS at all, or was there some other reason for your objections?

PUHL: The first part of your question I answer with “no.” There was no objection on principle, nor could there be; for, after all, every German organization or institution had the legal right to enjoy the services of the Reichsbank.

The circumstances arising out of these confiscations were uncomfortable, like the confiscations of the foreign exchange control offices, et cetera, which I mentioned, because one never knew what difficulties might result.

DR. SAUTER: So that, if I understand you well—please correct me if I interpret it wrongly—you voiced objections because these business affairs were somewhat uncomfortable for the Reichsbank, they fell outside the normal scope of business, and were as little welcome to you as, for instance, deposits of the customs authorities or the foreign exchange control offices, and so forth? Only for this reason?

PUHL: Yes. But I have to add something; we were asked whether we would assist the SS in handling these deposits. It was immediately clear, of course, and also expressly stated, that these deposits included foreign currency, and also securities and all sorts of gold coins, et cetera, and that the SS people did not quite know how to deal with these things.

DR. SAUTER: Did these things arrive subsequently?

PUHL: Yes. But something else happened before that. After this conversation the head of the Economic Department of the SS, whose name was Pohl, Obergruppenführer Pohl, contacted me. I asked him to come to my office, and there he repeated, what I already knew, namely that he would welcome it if we would take over these valuables as soon as possible.

DR. SAUTER: What was your answer?

PUHL: I confirmed what we had arranged and said, “If you will designate officials from your department, I shall inform our department, and together they can discuss the technical details.”

DR. SAUTER: To revert to an earlier stage: What did the Defendant Funk say when you explained during your first conversation with him that you would not willingly take over those things because one often had a lot of trouble with such matters?

PUHL: My objections were subordinated to the broader consideration of assisting the SS, all the more—and this must be emphasized—because these things were for the account of the Reich.

DR. SAUTER: Did you discuss whether these things, particularly gold, should be converted by the Reichsbank or melted down?

PUHL: No, not in detail; it was merely said that the officials of the Reichsbank should offer their good services to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: I do not quite understand. The good services of the Reichsbank officials consist in receiving these valuables into safekeeping and locking them up?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Were the services of your officials to go beyond that?

PUHL: Yes, inasmuch as the SS people were to come and remove from the containers whatever had to be surrendered.

DR. SAUTER: For instance, gold coins, foreign currency, et cetera?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Then did you see—to come back to the question already put—did you see what arrived, what the SS delivered?

PUHL: No, not personally. This happened far away from my office, in quite a different building, downstairs in the strong-rooms which I, as Vice President of the Reichsbank, would not normally enter without a special reason.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, as Vice President, visit these strong-rooms frequently?

PUHL: It was a habit of mine, sometimes at an interval of three months or longer, to go through the strong-rooms; if there was some occasion for it, for instance, when there was a visitor to be conducted or some new installation to be discussed, or when there was something of importance beyond mere attendance on the safes and the clients.

DR. SAUTER: But, of course, as Vice President, you had nothing to do with attending to customers?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: And I should like to put the same question to you with regard to the Defendant Funk. Did the Defendant Funk, who moreover belonged to the Reichsbank only in part, go to the strong-rooms often?

If so, how often and for what reason? And did he see what had been handed in by the SS?

PUHL: The answer is that Funk, too, went to the strong-rooms on special occasions, for example, when there were foreign visitors. Naturally, I would not know how often, nor whether he saw the SS deposits. That depends on whether the strong-room officials who were conducting him pointed them out to him.

DR. SAUTER: Did you, Witness, see the things which came from the SS—did you see them yourself?

PUHL: No, never.

DR. SAUTER: Never?

PUHL: Never.

DR. SAUTER: Do you think that the Defendant Funk saw them?

PUHL: I cannot tell that, of course; it depends on whether the strong-room officials pointed out specifically: “Here is the deposit of the SS.”

DR. SAUTER: Then I presume you cannot give us any information on how these things of the SS were actually kept or how they were packed?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Whether in boxes or...

PUHL: No, I do not know that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you talk again about this whole affair of the SS deposits with the Defendant Funk?

PUHL: Hardly at all, as far as I can remember. But I must certainly have talked to him a second time, after Herr Pohl had visited me, since it was, of course, my task and my duty to keep Funk informed of everything.

DR. SAUTER: Did the members of the Reichsbank Directorate, the board of directors, attach a special significance to this whole matter so that there might have been occasion to discuss it more frequently? Or was it regarded as just an unpleasant but unimportant sort of business?

PUHL: No. At the beginning there was probably a report on it to the meeting of the Directorate, but then it was not mentioned again.

DR. SAUTER: You cannot recollect having later again talked of the matter with Funk? But it is possible, if I understood you correctly, that after the settlement with SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, you may again have reported about it briefly? Did I understand you correctly?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Witness, in your affidavit under Figure 5, you say that among the articles deposited by the SS were jewelry, watches, spectacle frames, gold fillings—apparently these dental fillings—and other articles in large quantities which the SS had taken away from Jews and concentration camp victims and other persons. How do you know that?

PUHL: I know that from my interrogations at Frankfurt.

DR. SAUTER: You were told about these things during your interrogations in Frankfurt after your arrest?

PUHL: And they were shown to me.

DR. SAUTER: You had no knowledge of them while you were free and administered the Reichsbank as Vice President?

PUHL: No, because, I repeat it again, we never discussed this in the Directorate, since it was of no basic significance for currency or banking policy or in any other respect.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, if at that time in 1942 you had known that these were articles which the SS had taken away from many concentration camp victims, would you have received them into safekeeping?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: What would you have done?

PUHL: Then we would have come to some decision on the attitude which the bank as a whole should adopt toward this problem.

DR. SAUTER: Who would have had the decisive word?

PUHL: The decision would have been made by the Directorate of the Reichsbank as an executive group, as a corporate body, and then it would have been submitted to the President for countersignature.

DR. SAUTER: Earlier—I must fill in this gap in connection with your affidavit—you expressed yourself in a rather misleading way. You stated earlier: “This was brought to our knowledge, because the SS personnel attempted to convert this material into gold, into cash.” And today you say that you heard of it only after your arrest. Apparently, if I understand you correctly, there must be...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, I do not understand why you say “earlier.” It is the sentence which followed the sentence which you put to him.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Why do you say “earlier” then? Why do you say “earlier”?

DR. SAUTER: In his affidavit—if the wording of the affidavit is correct and there is no misunderstanding—the witness said...

THE PRESIDENT: What I am pointing out to you is that the first sentence reads like this: “The material deposited by the SS included all these items taken from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons by the SS.” And it then goes on, “This was brought to our knowledge by the SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash.” What you are now putting to him is that that acceptance was put to him earlier. At least that is what I understood you to say.

DR. SAUTER: No; the witness said today that he was told only during his interrogations in Frankfurt-on-Main that these articles had been taken from concentration camp victims, et cetera. The affidavit, however, can and must be interpreted in my opinion as saying that he received this information, already before his arrest, through the SS personnel and that apparently is not true. For that reason I asked the witness whether this expression in the affidavit is not a misunderstanding.

Now, Witness, if I may repeat this: You first heard that these articles belonged to concentration camp victims at your interrogation?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And when did you learn what was contained in this deposit; when did you know that, to pick out one example, gold teeth were contained in it?

PUHL: Not at all. No details of this transaction were submitted to the Directorate by the strong-room or safe officials.

DR. SAUTER: So of this, too, you heard only after your arrest?

PUHL: Of the details, yes.

DR. SAUTER: Good. Now, you speak of an agreement which, according to the statement of Funk, Himmler, the Reichsführer of the SS, is said to have made with the Reich Minister of Finance. What do you know about this agreement?

PUHL: That is the agreement I have already mentioned. It was clear from the beginning that the value of the things deposited with us was to be credited to the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: Not to the SS?

PUHL: No, not to the SS.

DR. SAUTER: Why not? The SS were the depositors, were they not?

PUHL: Yes, but they maintained that their actions were carried out in the name and on behalf of the Reich and its accounts.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, do you know whether these valuables, which in some way had been confiscated or stolen by the SS in the East, were placed as a matter of principle at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance?

PUHL: I did not quite understand the question. Are you referring to these articles or to confiscated articles, valuables in general?

DR. SAUTER: To all valuables. I am speaking of gold, foreign currency, and so forth, all these valuables acquired by the SS in the East; were they all to be placed at the disposal of the Reich Ministry of Finance, and not of the Reichsbank?

PUHL: The equivalent value?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, the equivalent value.

PUHL: The equivalent value was credited to the Reich Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: In this connection, Witness, may I show you two accounts. I do not know whether you have seen them. They are two accounts of the chief cashier’s office of your bank.

PUHL: Yes, to us.

DR. SAUTER: I should like you, then, to look at them, and to tell me whether you have seen them before and what you know about them?

PUHL: I saw these two copies—photostat copies—during my interrogations.

DR. SAUTER: But not earlier?

PUHL: No, not earlier. And from these photostat copies it is clear—we have just discussed it—that the equivalent value was to be credited to the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office, as it says here; the Reich Chief Cashier’s Office was a part of the Ministry of Finance.

DR. SAUTER: So apparently it is connected with this agreement, of which you heard, that finally all these things belonged to the Reich Ministry of Finance, to the Reich.

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: Now I have one more question on this subject. And I would like to know whether perhaps there is a misunderstanding in this case too. You say in the affidavit that Funk told you this matter should be kept absolutely secret; that is the wording. You did not mention this point at all today, although we have the affidavit in front of us. Will you say now whether this is true or whether it is a misunderstanding?

PUHL: That it should be kept secret? No.

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

PUHL: Of course, this matter was to be kept secret, but then everything that happens in a bank must be kept secret.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, this statement cannot, of course, satisfy us. Did you, during your interrogation of 3 May, say what is contained in this document, namely, that the matter was to be kept absolutely secret, or did you express yourself in different words?

PUHL: No, the wording of the affidavit is correct; the matter was to be kept absolutely secret.

DR. SAUTER: Why?

PUHL: Why? Because, plainly, such matters are usually kept secret and are not publicized; furthermore, these things came from the East. I repeat what I said before, that our attitude towards confiscated articles was always to avoid them.

DR. SAUTER: Did it strike you as unusual that the Defendant Funk spoke of keeping the matter secret?

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Or did it not strike you as unusual?

PUHL: Not as unusual.

DR. SAUTER: Not as unusual?

PUHL: No. It was merely decided in the conversation that since we were not willing to accept the confiscated articles of the foreign exchange control offices and the customs offices, we should, naturally, insist on secrecy in accepting these articles.

DR. SAUTER: Yes. But from your account of the matter, it appears that, on one hand, you considered the business to be perfectly legal, and you yourself say that it was perfectly legal; on the other hand, secrecy was for you, as an old banking expert, a matter of course. Now the question arises, why then was the subject of keeping the matter secret discussed at all?

PUHL: Herr Funk himself had been asked to keep the matter as secret as possible, and he passed on that request.

DR. SAUTER: When did Funk tell you that he had been asked to keep it secret?

PUHL: I do not remember that.

DR. SAUTER: Did you not ask him why it should be kept secret, absolutely secret, as you say? I do not know whether you still maintain “absolutely secret”?

PUHL: Yes, a special duty of observing secrecy was to be imposed on the officials.

DR. SAUTER: Well, what did you, as Vice President, as Managing Vice President, say to that?

PUHL: I did not say anything because, if that had been agreed upon, then this wish would have to be complied with.

DR. SAUTER: But you do not know whether it had been agreed upon?

PUHL: Well, I assume that it was agreed upon.

DR. SAUTER: You consider it possible?

PUHL: Yes.

DR. SAUTER: And—to repeat this—you did not at all see the articles which arrived?

PUHL: No, not at all.

DR. SAUTER: And probably you do not know how many there were?

PUHL: No, I do not know that either; and, as I said before, I never saw an account; that was not in conformity with our procedure, as individual transactions were not submitted to the members of the Directorate.

DR. SAUTER: I ask because recently, when this case was discussed, it was asserted that whole truckloads of such articles, whole truckloads had arrived. You are already laughing and you will laugh more when I tell you that 47 truckloads of gold were said to have arrived at your bank; and you knew nothing about them?

PUHL: I have never heard of that.

DR. SAUTER: You heard nothing about that? Witness, we will leave this point and turn to the second point in your affidavit of May, with which we can deal very briefly.

I think you knew Herr Pohl, SS Obergruppenführer Pohl, of whom you spoke just now, already in 1942?

PUHL: Yes, but none the less this was the first occasion on which Pohl came to my office.

DR. SAUTER: This is no reproach, I just wanted to establish a fact. You knew him as a result of this first credit transaction which took place at an earlier time.

PUHL: Yes, that may be.

DR. SAUTER: The Defendant Funk says, you see, that as far as he can remember this credit matter—and he did not attach any special significance to it at the time—it was negotiated about 1940, some time before the other transaction. Can that be true? Approximately?

PUHL: I can neither deny nor confirm that; I no longer recall the date of the credit.

DR. SAUTER: Well, in your affidavit you state, with reference to this credit, that the Reichsbank had granted a credit of 10 or 12 millions to the SS, I believe to pay off a loan which the SS had taken up with another bank. And you say that this credit was used for financing production in factories directed by the SS, where workers from concentration camps were employed.

Witness, I am not primarily interested in this credit as such because it was, of course, part of your business as a bank; and the figure of, I think, 10 or 12 millions was also not unusual. But I am interested in how you knew that this money was to be used for SS factories in which workers from concentration camps were employed. How did you know that?

PUHL: The application for credit came from the Economic Department of the SS which I have mentioned before. This department was directing a number of factories in Germany, and needed money for that purpose. The Gold Discount Bank was prepared to give this credit, but only in the form of regular business credits. In other words, the debtor had to submit a balance sheet to us and at regular intervals had to report on his production, his general financial position, his plans for the immediate future, in short, all matters on which a debtor is bound to inform his creditor.

The board of directors of the Gold Discount Bank conducted these negotiations, in which the representatives of the Economic Department, who submitted the balance sheets, naturally discussed their production program, which was remarkable insofar as the wage figures affecting the balance were comparatively low. And so the natural question arose: Why is your wage account so low? The director of the Gold Discount Bank reported on this subject to the board meeting of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: You always refer to the Gold Discount Bank. The Tribunal would be interested to know whether the Gold Discount Bank is identical with the Reichsbank, whether it was also under the jurisdiction of the Defendant Funk and your own, and what was its position?

PUHL: The Gold Discount Bank was an institute subsidiary to the Reichsbank; it was founded in the twenties for various purposes, not only for the promotion of exports, but also for the increase of production. The capital structure...

DR. SAUTER: No, we are not interested in that.

PUHL: Practically all the shares were in the hands of the Reichsbank. The Gold Discount Bank had a Board of Directors always headed by the President of the Reichsbank; it also had a deputy chairman who was the Second Vice President of the Reichsbank, and the Board of Directors itself included a number of members of the Directorate of the Reichsbank, and also the State Secretaries of the Ministry of Economics and of the Ministry of Finance.

THE PRESIDENT: It is not interesting to us to know who the exact directors of the Gold Discount Bank were.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I wanted, in fact, to interrupt you earlier, and tell you that what you have just related is without significance for the Trial. To me and to the Tribunal it is only of interest to hear whether the Defendant Funk, as far as you definitely remember, had knowledge of these matters, of the purpose of this credit and whether he knew that in these factories people from the concentration camps were employed? Do you, or do you not know?

PUHL: I might assume that, but I cannot know it. At any rate, it was known that the credit was destined for these factories.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, I cannot be satisfied with that answer because the SS, as you have probably heard in the meantime, directed various undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed. To my knowledge, for example, the porcelain factory at Allach did not apparently employ concentration camp inmates. Then for example, the entire personnel at the spas...

MR. DODD: I object to testimony by counsel. He is practically giving the answer to this witness before he asks the question.

DR. SAUTER: Do you know whether the SS had undertakings in which no concentration camp inmates were employed?

PUHL: I did not, of course, know every individual business run by the SS, nor could I know in each case whether prisoners were or were not employed.

DR. SAUTER: Was the Defendant Funk present at all during the meeting at which this credit was discussed?

PUHL: No, he was not present; the records of the proceedings were submitted; we always adopted that procedure.

DR. SAUTER: Then did the Defendant Funk talk at all with the people who had given information on the unusual figures of the wage account?

PUHL: No, that was done by the Board of Directors of the Gold Discount Bank.

DR. SAUTER: That was done by the board of the Gold Discount Bank, not by the Defendant Funk?

Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness.

MR. DODD: I have just a few questions to ask, Your Honor.

[Turning to the witness.] Whom have you talked to besides representatives of the Prosecution since you have arrived here in Nuremberg? Did you look at any paper?

PUHL: I do not know all their names, I believe a Mr. Kempner, Mr. Margolis...

MR. DODD: I am not asking you about the gentlemen of the Prosecution. I am asking you whom else you have talked to, if anybody, since you arrived here in Nuremberg. That doesn’t require very much thought. Have you talked to anybody else since you arrived here or not?

PUHL: Only to the other prisoners in the corridor of our prison.

MR. DODD: To no one else?

PUHL: No one else.

MR. DODD: Now, are you absolutely sure about that?

PUHL: Yes, absolutely.

MR. DODD: Did you talk to Dr. Stuckart over in the witness wing, and about your testimony that you were going to give here this morning? Answer that question.

PUHL: Dr. Stuckart is one of the prisoners in the corridor of our witness wing.

MR. DODD: I didn’t ask you that. I asked you if you didn’t talk to him a day or two ago about your testimony in this case?

PUHL: No.

MR. DODD: Now, I think it is awfully important to you that I remind you that you are under oath here. I am going to ask you again if you didn’t talk to Dr. Stuckart over in this witness wing about your testimony or about the facts concerning Funk in this case?

PUHL: No, I talked about all sorts of general matters.

MR. DODD: You didn’t talk to four or five of those other people over there either about your testimony or about the facts here?

PUHL: No, absolutely not.

MR. DODD: All right. You know a man by the name of Thoms, T-h-o-m-s?

PUHL: T-h-o-m-s? He was an official of the Reichsbank who worked in the vaults of the Reichsbank in Berlin.

MR. DODD: You know the man, you do know him?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now, you talked to him about these deposits put in by the SS, didn’t you, Herr Puhl?

PUHL: To Herr Thoms, no.

MR. DODD: You didn’t talk to him?

PUHL: No, I have not seen Herr Thoms at all in Nuremberg, and only from a distance in Frankfurt.

MR. DODD: I am not referring to Nuremberg now. We will get away from that for a minute. I mean during the time that these deposits were being made in the Reichsbank. Did you not talk to Herr Thoms about the deposits?

PUHL: Yes, as has been stated here in the affidavit.

MR. DODD: Well, never mind the affidavit for a few minutes. I have a few questions I want to ask you. I am particularly interested in this matter of secrecy. What did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits? Did you tell Thoms about the requirement of secrecy with respect to these SS deposits?

PUHL: I must add that I really talked with Herr Tonetti, because he was the person responsible; and Herr Thoms was only called in. I told both gentlemen that it was desired the matter be kept secret.

MR. DODD: Did you say that it had to be kept a secret and that they must not discuss it with anybody else; that it was highly secret, a special transaction, and if anybody asked him about it, he was to say that he was forbidden to speak about it? Did you tell that to Herr Thoms in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: Yes, that was the sense of what I said.

MR. DODD: Well, that is what I am asking you. Why did you tell Thoms that he was not to speak about it; that it was absolutely forbidden; that it was highly secret, if it was just the ordinary confidence reposed in bank officials attached to a business relationship?

PUHL: Because the Reichsbank President Funk personally conveyed this wish to me.

MR. DODD: Well, now, I think perhaps there is some confusion in our minds. You see, I clearly understood, and I expect others as well as the Tribunal may have in the courtroom this morning, that you were telling counsel for Funk that the secrecy attached to these transactions was not extraordinary but just the ordinary secrecy or confidence that banking people attach to their relationship with customers. Now, of course, that wasn’t so, was it?

PUHL: The position, as I explained it earlier, is this: These confiscated valuables were usually rejected by us when brought to the bank; and if an exception was now being made, then it was a matter of course that a greater amount of secrecy, a special obligation to maintain secrecy, should be observed.

MR. DODD: I wish you would answer this question very directly. Wasn’t there a special reason for special secrecy with respect to these deposits by the SS? You can answer that Yes or No.

PUHL: No, I did not perceive a special reason.

MR. DODD: Then why were you telling Thoms that it was highly secret and he was to tell anybody who asked him about it that he was forbidden to speak about it? You didn’t ordinarily instruct your people to that effect, did you?

PUHL: Because I myself had received this instruction.

MR. DODD: That may be so, but that was a special secrecy, wasn’t it? That wasn’t your ordinary and customary way of doing business?

PUHL: The confiscated articles were usually rejected when they reached us; if the exception which we made in this case became known, then it would immediately have provided an example for others; and that we wanted to avoid under all circumstances.

MR. DODD: You didn’t want to discuss this matter on the telephone with Pohl of the SS, did you? You asked him to come to your office rather than talk about it on the telephone?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Why was that, if it was just an ordinary business transaction?

PUHL: Because one never knew to what extent the telephone was being tapped, and thus the transaction might have become known to others.

MR. DODD: Well, you didn’t talk to anybody much on the telephone; is that right? You were a man that never used the telephone out of the Reichsbank? Now, I think you realize fully well that there was a special reason in this case for not wanting to talk on the telephone and I think you should tell the Tribunal what it was.

PUHL: Yes; the reason was, as I have said repeatedly, that from the beginning special secrecy was desired, this desire was respected and adhered to everywhere, also as to this telephone call.

MR. DODD: And you are still insisting that this transaction was not a special secret transaction that you told Dr. Kempner was a “Schweinerei.” Do you know what that word means?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: What does it mean? It means it smelled bad, doesn’t it?

PUHL: That we should not have done it.

MR. DODD: Now, you called up Thoms on more than one occasion to ask him how the deposits from the SS were coming in, didn’t you?

PUHL: No, I saw Thoms relatively seldom, often not for months, as he could hardly come to my office.

MR. DODD: I didn’t ask you if you saw him often. I asked you if you didn’t call him on the telephone and ask him how the deposits were coming along?

PUHL: No, I took no further interest in the conduct of this particular transaction. Moreover, the requesting of a report from the cashier would have been the proper procedure.

MR. DODD: Did you tell him to get in touch with Brigadeführer Frank or Gruppenführer or Obergruppenführer Wolff of the SS? Did you tell that to Thoms?

PUHL: Yes, I repeat what I said earlier; when Pohl was in my office he told me that he would appoint two people to negotiate the transaction with the Reichsbank, and they were the two people just mentioned; I passed on their names to the cashier’s office.

MR. DODD: What was the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank?

PUHL: I heard of the name under which these deposits were known in the Reichsbank for the first time in Frankfurt, when I saw it in the files.

MR. DODD: Don’t you know the name Melmer, M-e-l-m-e-r?

PUHL: Yes, from my time in Frankfurt.

MR. DODD: Didn’t you on one occasion call Herr Thoms on the telephone and ask him how the “Melmer” deposits were coming along?

PUHL: I am afraid I didn’t quite understand.

MR. DODD: Well, I say, didn’t you on one occasion at least call Herr Thoms on the telephone in the Reichsbank and ask him how the “Melmer” deposits were coming along?

PUHL: No, I could not have put that question because I did not know the word “Melmer.”

MR. DODD: You don’t know that Melmer was the name of an SS man? You don’t know that?

PUHL: No, I did not know that.

MR. DODD: I want you to look at an affidavit by Mr. Thoms, executed the 8th day of May 1946. You have seen this before, by the way; haven’t you, you saw it yesterday? Answer that question, will you please, Mr. Witness. You saw this affidavit yesterday, the one I just sent up to you? You saw that yesterday, didn’t you?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: You will observe in Paragraph 5 that Thoms, who executed this affidavit, said that he went to see you and that you told him that the Reichsbank was going to act as custodian for the SS and the receipt and disposition of deposits and that the SS would deliver the property, namely gold, silver and foreign currency; and you also explained that the SS intended to deliver numerous other kinds of property such as jewelry, and “we must find a way to dispose of it,” and that he suggested to you, Mr. Puhl, that:

“We transmit the items to the Reichshauptkasse, as we did in the case of Wehrmacht booty, or that the items could be given by the Reichsführer-SS directly to the pawnshop for disposition, so that the Reichsbank had no more to do with it than it did in the case of confiscated Jewish property. Puhl told me that it was out of the question and that it was necessary that we arrange a procedure for handling this unusual property in order to hold the whole business secret.”

Then he goes on to say:

“This conversation with Puhl occurred just a short time, approximately two weeks, before the first delivery, which occurred on 26 August 1942. The conversation was in the office of Herr Puhl; nobody else was present. I don’t remember if Herr Frommknecht was present during the whole time; and Puhl said it was very important not to discuss this with anybody, that it was to be highly secret, that it was a special transaction, and if anybody asked about it that I should say I was forbidden to speak about it.”

And on the next page you find, in Paragraph 8, Herr Thoms says:

“I was told by Herr Puhl that if I had any questions on this matter I was to get in touch with Brigadeführer Frank or with Gruppenführer or Obergruppenführer Wolff of the SS. I remember getting the telephone number of this office, and I think I recall it was furnished me by Herr Puhl. I called Brigadeführer Frank about this, and he stated that the deliveries would be made by truck and would be in charge of an SS man by the name of Melmer. The question was discussed whether Melmer should appear in uniform or civilian clothes, and Frank decided it was better that Melmer appear out of uniform.”

And so on.

Then, moving on down, he says, in Paragraph 10:

“When the first delivery was made, however, although Melmer appeared in civilian clothes, one or two SS men in uniform were on guard; and after one or two deliveries most of the people in the Hauptkasse and almost everybody in my office knew all about the SS deliveries.”

Then moving on again, Paragraph 12:

“Included in the first statement sent by the Reichsbank, and signed by me, to Melmer was a question concerning the name of the account to which the proceeds should be credited. In answer to that I was orally advised by Melmer that the proceeds should be credited to the account of ‘Max Heiliger.’ I confirmed this on the telephone with the Ministry of Finance; and in my second statement to Melmer, dated 16 November 1942, I confirmed the oral conversation.”

Now, the next paragraph is 13:

“After a few months, Puhl called me and asked me how the Melmer deliveries were going along and suggested that perhaps they would soon be over. I told Puhl that the way the deliveries were coming in it looked as though they were growing.”

And then I call your attention to the next paragraph:

“One of the first hints of the sources of these items occurred when it was noticed that a packet of bills was stamped with a rubber stamp, ‘Lublin.’ This occurred some time early in 1943. Another hint came when some items bore the stamp, ‘Auschwitz.’ We all knew that these places were the sites of concentration camps. It was the tenth delivery, in November 1942, that dental gold appeared. The quantity of the dental gold became unusually great.”

Now, there is another paragraph, but I particularly want to call your attention to the fact that Thoms says you called him and asked him how the Melmer deliveries were going, and also to the fact that you, as he states in here, impressed upon him the need for absolute secrecy.

And now, I want to ask you, after having seen that affidavit again—and you will recall that you told our people yesterday that that affidavit, insofar as your knowledge was concerned, was absolutely true—now I am going to ask you if it isn’t a fact that there was a very special reason for keeping this transaction secret.

PUHL: In reading this statement, it is obvious that the desire for secrecy came from the SS; and this tallies exactly with what I said before, namely, that the SS emphasized that the desire for secrecy originated with them. And as we heard, they went so far as to invent an account—“Max Heiliger”—which was obviously, as is also clear from the statement, an account for the Reich Ministry of Finance. In other words, this tallies with what I have been saying, namely, that the obligation to keep the matter secret, this special obligation, was desired by the SS, and was carried out; and it applied even to the transfer of the equivalent value. As regards the second point, that I am supposed to have talked to Thoms, I already stated yesterday that I do not remember such a conversation among the very great number of conversations which I had at the bank daily. Nor can I imagine that I went to see him. That would have been a very unusual procedure.

I do not recall the expression “Melmer deliveries” in that connection; but I suggest that it is used in this statement for simplicity’s sake, just to refer briefly to the subject under discussion.

MR. DODD: It isn’t too important, but of course he says you called him on the telephone, that you didn’t go to see him. However, I offer this as Exhibit USA-852.

THE PRESIDENT: This statement we have before us doesn’t appear to be sworn.

MR. DODD: Well, the witness is here in Nuremberg. I will withdraw it and have it sworn to and submit it at a later date. I wasn’t aware that it wasn’t sworn to. He is here and available. I had him brought here in case any question, was raised about him.

[Turning to the witness.] Now, the Defendant Göring knew something about these deposits, too, didn’t he? Now that we are talking this thing all out, what about that?

PUHL: I was not aware that Herr Göring knew anything about these things.

MR. DODD: I show you a document that was found in the files of the Reich Treasury, the Reichsbank, rather. It is Number 3947-PS, and it is a new document. You haven’t seen this, by the way.

Now, this is a memorandum in the files, dated 31 March 1944, and it says, its subject is:

“Utilization of jewels, and so forth, which have been acquired by official agencies in favor of the Reich.

“According to an oral confidential agreement between the Vice President, Mr. Puhl, and the chief of one of Berlin’s public offices, the Reichsbank has taken over the converting of domestic and foreign moneys, gold and silver coins, precious metals, securities, jewels, watches, diamonds, and other valuable articles. These deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’

“The large amounts of jewelry, and so forth, acquired hereby have previously been turned over—after checking the number of pieces and, insofar as they had not been melted down, the approximate weights given—to the Municipal Pawn Shop, Division III, Main Office, Berlin N 4, Elsässer Strasse 74, for the best possible realization of value.”

I am not going to read all of it. It goes on with more material about the pawnshop, but I want to call your attention to the paragraph beginning:

“The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, the Delegate for the Four Year Plan, informs the Reichsbank in his letter of 19 March 1944, copy of which is enclosed, that the considerable amounts of gold and silver objects, jewels, and so forth at the Main Office of Trustees for the East (Haupttreuhandstelle Ost) are to be delivered to the Reichsbank according to an order issued by Reich Ministers Funk and Graf Schwerin von Krosigk. The converting of these objects must be accomplished in the same way as the ‘Melmer’ deliveries.

“At the same time the Reich Marshal informs us on the converting of objects of the same kind which have been acquired in the occupied western territories. We do not know to which office these objects have been delivered and how they are liquidated.”

Then there is more about an inquiry and more about this whole business, the pawnshops, and so on. But, first of all, I want to ask you: In the first paragraph it says “according to a confidential oral agreement between you and the chief of one of Berlin’s public offices”—who was this chief of the Berlin public office who had a confidential agreement about this business with you?

PUHL: That was Herr Pohl. This is the agreement of which we spoke this morning.

MR. DODD: That was Herr Pohl of the SS, wasn’t it?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: And that was this whole transaction; this whole SS transaction that this memorandum is about, that much of it is about?

PUHL: This is a report from our cashier, and in line with the obligation of secrecy the words “SS Economic Department” have been avoided and the more general term “the head of a Berlin public office” is used.

MR. DODD: And later on in the paragraph it refers to the incoming objects to be processed under the code name “Melmer,” M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you a few minutes ago if you recognized, isn’t it?

PUHL: I didn’t understand the question.

MR. DODD: Well, the last sentence in this paragraph says: “All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’ ” M-e-l-m-e-r. That is the name I asked you about a few minutes ago, and you said you didn’t know it.

PUHL: Yes, and this statement also shows that I couldn’t have known it, because only now, in this statement, is it disclosed that the name “Melmer” was used.

MR. DODD: I think if you will read it you will see that it shows just the opposite. It says, according to the oral confidential agreement between you and Pohl of the SS the Reichsbank took over the selling, and so on, of gold, silver coins, and so forth. “All incoming deposits will be processed under the code name ‘Melmer.’ ”

You are not telling this Tribunal that a transaction like this was going on in your bank over which you were Vice President, under a code name, and you didn’t know it, and you were the man who was dealing directly with the SS man. Are you seriously saying that to this Court?

PUHL: Yes. The word “Melmer” was never used in my presence. But our treasury directors could use code words for the accounts of clients who preferred not to give their own names and the names of their institutions; and the treasury made use of a code word in this case too.

MR. DODD: You will observe that this is the second time this morning that we have run across the name Melmer. Herr Thoms says you used that term in talking to him, and now we find it in one of your own bank memorandums, which is a captured document. Are you still saying that you don’t know the term?

PUHL: This memorandum wasn’t made for me, but for the responsible treasury official. And specifically in order to acquaint him with the arrangements made by the treasury, the memorandum states under what code name this transaction will be carried out.

MR. DODD: Herr Puhl, look up at me a minute, will you. Didn’t you tell Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, and Dr. Kempner, when they were all together with you, that all of this business with the SS was common gossip in the Reichsbank? These gentlemen who are sitting right here, two of them at the United States table and one up here. You know them. Now I want you to think a minute before you answer that question.

PUHL: We talked of the fact that the secret was not kept, and in the long run it is not possible to keep a permanent secret in a bank; but that has nothing to do with it. What we were speaking of just now were the technical details, how this sort of transaction was carried out; those details did not become general knowledge. What naturally could not be avoided was the transaction as such becoming known.

MR. DODD: Now, in case you don’t understand me, we are not talking about that. I think you cannot help but remember because this is only a day or so ago, and in this building, you had a conversation with these gentlemen, didn’t you? And I am now asking you if it isn’t a fact that you told them that this whole SS transaction with the bank was common gossip in the bank.

PUHL: There was a general whisper in the bank about this transaction; but details were, of course, not known.

MR. DODD: Are you worried about your part in this? I think that is a fair question in view of your affidavit in your testimony. Are you concerned about what you had to do with this business? Are you?

PUHL: No. I myself, once the matter had been set in motion, had nothing further to do with it. And in the statement, which you have submitted, Herr Thoms himself admits that he did not see me at all for months. The Directorate never discussed this matter in its meetings and was never approached for a decision.

MR. DODD: You know, when the Defendant Funk was on the stand, he said that you were the one who first told him about the SS business. Is that your version of it?

PUHL: No. My recollection is that the first conversation took place in the office of President Funk; and he told me, for reasons which I stated earlier, that we wanted to oblige the SS by taking over these “deposits”—that was the word used.

MR. DODD: You put it more strongly than that the other day when you thought about it, when you said “Can you imagine Himmler talking to me instead of Funk”? Do you remember saying that to these gentlemen?

PUHL: I’m sorry I didn’t understand the last question.

MR. DODD: Well, it is not too important. I say, don’t you remember telling these gentlemen, Lieutenant Meltzer, Lieutenant Margolis, don’t you remember making this statement that Himmler wouldn’t talk to you as Vice President of the Bank, but that he would talk to Funk. You were quite upset when we told you that Funk had said that you were the man who originated this.

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: You got terribly upset about it. Don’t you remember that?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: Finally, this question: Are you serious in saying that you didn’t know about these deposits until you were interrogated in Frankfurt, or what the nature of them was? In view of the Thoms affidavit, this exhibit that I have just shown you, and the whole examination this morning, do you want your testimony to close with the statement that you actually didn’t know what was in these deposits at any time?

PUHL: I saw the statement put before me today, the statement by the treasury official put before me today, for the first time in Frankfurt, and never before. Moreover, I did not and could not, as Vice President, concern myself with the details of this transaction, for I was responsible for general economic and currency policy and for credits and such things. Besides, we had a whole staff of highly qualified officials in our treasury office; and if it had been necessary, they would have had to make a report to the Directorate of the Reichsbank.

MR. DODD: Of course you don’t deny that you knew there were jewels and silver and all these other things in the deposits, do you?

PUHL: The German term “Schmucksachen,” jewelry, was always used.

MR. DODD: All right! Let’s see what you did know was in the deposits? You knew there was jewelry, some jewelry, there. You knew there was some currency. You knew there were coins. You knew there were other articles. Now, the only thing you didn’t know was the dental gold; is that so?

PUHL: That is true, certainly. It was known from the outset, and Herr Pohl had told me, that the greater part of these deposits contained mainly gold, foreign currency, silver coins, and, he added, also “some jewelry.”

MR. DODD: Well, now, the question I think you can answer simply is: Everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold you did know was on deposits from the SS. Don’t you understand that question? I don’t think it is complicated. You don’t need to read anything, Herr Puhl. If you will just look up here, I am asking you if you know about everything that is mentioned in your affidavit except the dental gold.

PUHL: Well, I knew about jewelry, but I did not know in detail what kind of jewelry it was.

MR. DODD: I am not asking you about details. I am simply asking if you did know it was there. You knew there was currency there, and you knew there were other articles there. Those are about the only things that are mentioned excepting the dental gold, and that is the one thing you seem now not to have known.

PUHL: Yes, I knew, in general, that the deposits contained gold and foreign currency, and I repeat that the jewelry...

MR. DODD: And jewelry?

PUHL: I knew that there was jewelry.

MR. DODD: So the only thing you say now you didn’t know was the dental gold. That is all I am asking you. Why don’t you answer that? It doesn’t take very long. Isn’t that so? The only thing you didn’t know was the dental gold.

PUHL: No.

MR. DODD: Well, what else is mentioned you didn’t know about?

PUHL: Spectacle frames, for example, were also mentioned.

MR. DODD: You didn’t know about those either? All right, I will include those, spectacle frames and dental gold. These are the two things you didn’t know about?

PUHL: Information I received contained only the general term “jewelry.”

MR. DODD: They are the two matters that you had the most to worry about, aren’t they, eyeglass frames and dental gold?

I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please. Don’t take that man away.

[Turning to the witness.] Have you got a copy of your affidavit before you?

PUHL: Of 3 May, yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you only got one copy of it?

PUHL: I must just look—Yes, I have another copy.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me have it, please, will you?

This document will be identified, and form part of the record. It had better be given whatever the appropriate number is.

MR. DODD: I believe, Mr. President, that it is already in evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: Not this particular document, it is not. This is the particular document he had before him; it has got a number of manuscript notes on it, and is in the English language.

Mr. Dodd, you had better look at it.

MR. DODD: All right, Sir.

I believe it would become Exhibit USA-851; I think that is the next number in sequence.

THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit USA-851; very well.

MR. DODD: I might say I think there is one question that might be helpful to the Tribunal with respect to this affidavit.

Herr Puhl, you personally typed up a large part of this affidavit yourself, did you not, or wrote it up, or dictated it?

PUHL: A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it accordingly.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment; and then signed it after you had altered it?

[The witness nodded assent.]

THE PRESIDENT: Do not nod; please answer. You said, “A complete draft was put before me, and I altered it.” And I ask you, did you then sign it?

PUHL: Yes.

MR. DODD: And did you also initial those places that you altered on the original? Did you not put your initials in each place that you wanted to make a change?

Isn’t that so?

PUHL: No; we copied it again, it was completely rewritten...

MR. DODD: I know you copied it anew. Did you not mark the places that you wanted changed and say how you wanted it changed? You did, did you not?

PUHL: Yes; but that is of minor importance; for instance, the word for “Reichsbank” was changed to “Gold Discount Bank,” and there were similar editorial changes.

MR. DODD: Well, I thought it might be helpful to the Tribunal to know that it was rewritten and initialed.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Francis Biddle, Member for the United States): Mr. Witness, I want to ask you a few questions. The first you heard about these transactions was from the Defendant Funk, was it not?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did Funk tell you who had told him about them in the SS?

PUHL: Himmler.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Himmler had spoken to Funk about this? Who else, besides Himmler and Funk, was present when Funk talked to Himmler about this?

PUHL: That I do not know.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You do not know if Pohl was there also?

PUHL: That I cannot say but I can say that from the very beginning the name of the Minister of Finance was mentioned in this connection. But whether he was personally present, I do not know.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Did Funk say to you what Himmler said to him?

PUHL: He asked that the facilities of the Reichsbank be placed at the disposal of the SS for this purpose.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Then shortly after that, you took the matter up at the meeting of the Board of Directors?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Was Funk at that meeting?

PUHL: No, he was not.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you say to the Board of Directors?

PUHL: I reported to the Directorate briefly on the transaction.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you say to them?

PUHL: In a few words I described my conversation with Herr Funk and my conversation with Herr Pohl, and I confirmed the fact that the Reichsbank would take the valuables of the SS into their vaults.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And then did the Board of Directors approve the action?

PUHL: Yes; there was no objection.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Now, the defendant Funk said to you that these objects had come “from the East,” did he not?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): What did you understand that he meant by that phrase, “from the East”?

PUHL: Principally Poland, occupied Poland. But some Russian territories might also have been included in that phrase.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): You knew that this was confiscated property, I presume?

PUHL: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Now, you told Pohl that the Bank would perform certain services in handling the property, did you not?

PUHL: Pohl asked me to place the good services of the Bank at the disposal of his men. That I agreed to do.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): And did those services include arranging the property, putting it in sacks and describing it?

PUHL: That was not talked about.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): I did not ask you whether it was talked about. I asked you whether the services included arranging the property and putting it in different kinds of containers and sacks. Is that what you did?

PUHL: Yes, that was a matter for the decision of the treasury directors; if they considered it necessary, they could do it.

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): Was that done?

PUHL: That I cannot know. It is a treasury matter.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I put two more questions, two very brief questions?

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter.

DR. SAUTER: The one question, Witness, is this: You have been repeatedly asked here who has talked to you during the past few days.

PUHL: Here in Nuremberg?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, in Nuremberg. You know that several members of the Prosecution have discussed this with you during the last few days. I should like to establish here: Have I talked to you?

PUHL: No, I am seeing you for the first time in my life today.

DR. SAUTER: I just wanted to establish this, for the sake of correctness. And the second question is this—actually you have already confirmed this, but after the charge of the Prosecution I should like to hear it from you again—in all these negotiations or in the documents which have been submitted and which you have of course read, was mention ever made of the fact that these things came from concentration camps?

PUHL: The word “concentration camp” was used neither during the conversation with Herr Funk nor during the conversation with Herr Pohl.

DR. SAUTER: And Herr Funk did not give you an indication of that sort, either.

PUHL: No.

DR. SAUTER: Then I have no further questions, Mr. President; thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire, and the Tribunal will adjourn.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, you did offer 3947-PS as an exhibit, did you not?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir, I did, as Exhibit USA-850, I believe it was.

THE PRESIDENT: 850, was it? Yes, and then that copy of the Puhl affidavit was USA-851?

MR. DODD: Yes, Sir, that is right. I did not offer the other affidavit because we discovered it wasn’t sworn to as yet. I propose to do so and with your permission I delay the date. I have that witness here. This thing can’t go on interminably, and I don’t want to drag it on; but I would like to offer it as an affidavit when I can have him swear to it, and if there is going to be any demand for him I might respectfully suggest that Dr. Sauter states it now. He is not a prisoner, Mr. President, the witness Thoms. He is a free man in this country.

THE PRESIDENT: You are suggesting that he should be called now?

MR. DODD: If he is going to be called, I would suggest that it be done soon.

THE PRESIDENT: If he wants to cross-examine him he should be called now.

MR. DODD: I should be glad to have him now.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I am representing Attorney Dr. Kauffmann for the Defendant Göring. The Defendant Göring asked me to put two questions to the witness Puhl during his re-examination. The questions would probably be connected with the document which the Prosecution brought up in cross-examination of the witness Puhl, Document 3947-PS, of which the Prosecution read Page 2, Paragraph 3, beginning, “The Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich, Delegate for the Four Year Plan...”

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, Dr. Seidl. If you want to put questions to the witness Puhl on behalf of the Defendant Göring you can do so and Puhl will be recalled for that purpose.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, the difficulty consists of something else. The Defendant Göring says, and I think rightly, that he can put his questions to the witness with reason only if he has an opportunity of seeing the document to which the Prosecution referred. Therefore, during the cross-examination I wanted to have the guard pass on Document 3947-PS to Defendant Göring. That was refused, however, on the grounds that, by an order of the Commandant of the Prison, during the proceedings documents can no longer be handed to those defendants whose cases have already been concluded.

THE PRESIDENT: Although the document was read over the earphones the Defendant Göring and yourself shall certainly see the document, but the witness must be called during this sitting. You may see the document and the Defendant Göring may see the document, but the witness must be recalled for any questions at once.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, only excerpts were read from the document. In my opinion the Defendant Göring is right in saying: If I am to ask a sensible question I must know the whole document. I think there are only two possibilities; either the Prosecution must refrain from presenting new material during cross-examination of the defendants whose cases are said to have already been concluded, or the defendant must be given the opportunity of seeing this evidence...

THE PRESIDENT: Don’t go too fast!

DR. SEIDL: ...or the defendant must be given the opportunity of seeing the evidence newly introduced, and when only excerpts of a document are read, he must have access to the whole document.

THE PRESIDENT: The document is only just over one page and there is only one paragraph in it which refers to Göring. And that paragraph has already been read. When I say one page, it is just one page of this English copy. I think you have a German translation before you.

DR. SEIDL: I have 3½ pages.

THE PRESIDENT: There is only one paragraph which relates to Göring.

DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, it is only a question of whether in the main proceedings I may give this photostat copy to the Defendant Göring or not. If this is possible, and...

THE PRESIDENT: You are going too fast!

DR. SEIDL: ...and I see no reason why it should not be possible, then I will shortly be able to ask the witness Puhl any question that may be necessary; but I think the defendant is right in saying that he would like to see the entire contents of a document from which only excerpts have been read.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I might be a little bit helpful. I would like to point out that Dr. Seidl had the document for 10 minutes anyway during the recess; and also I would like to point out that we did not preclude him, as members of the Prosecution, from having it. It is a security measure altogether.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps it will satisfy you, Dr. Seidl, if we order that the witness Puhl be recalled at 2 o’clock for Dr. Seidl to put any questions to him that you wish. And of course he would have the document. He has got the document now, and of course Göring will have the document, too.

DR. SEIDL: That is the difficulty, Mr. President. I have the document, but on account of the existing instructions I cannot hand it to the Defendant Göring.

THE PRESIDENT: You can give the document to Göring now.

DR. SEIDL: I am not allowed to do that.

THE PRESIDENT: I am telling you to do it, and they will let you do it.

Dr. Sauter, do you wish to cross-examine the man who has made a statement? Do you wish to cross-examine Thoms?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, if I may.

THE PRESIDENT: You do?

DR. SAUTER: Yes. Mr. President, may I comment on what Dr. Seidl has just said? It isn’t only a question concerning this one document which Dr. Seidl just wanted to give to the Defendant Göring, but it is a general question of whether during the session a defense counsel is authorized to hand to a defendant documents which have been submitted. Hitherto this has been allowed, but now the security ruling is that defendants whose cases have been completed for the present may no longer be given any documents in the courtroom by their defense counsel. Defense Counsel feel that this is an unfair ruling, since, as the case of Göring shows, it can very easily happen that a defendant is in some way involved in a later case. And the request which we now direct to you and to the Court is that Defense Counsel should again be permitted to give the defendants documents here during the session, even if the case of the defendant in question has already been concluded. That is what Dr. Seidl wanted to ask you.

Mr. President, may I say something else?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Sauter? You wanted to say something more to me?

DR. SAUTER: May I also point out the following: In the interrogation room down in the prison we have so far not been allowed to hand any documents to the prisoners with whom we were speaking. Thus, if I want to discuss a document with my client, I have to read the whole of it to him. And when 10, 12, or 15 defense counsel are down there in the evening, it is almost...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal is of the opinion that any document which is handed to the defendants’ counsel may be handed to the defendants themselves by the counsel and that it does not make any difference that a particular defendant’s case has been closed with reference to that rule.

DR. SAUTER: We are very grateful to you, Mr. President, and we hope that your ruling will not in practice encounter any difficulties.

THE PRESIDENT: Well then now, you want to cross-examine Thoms?

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Is Thoms here? Can he be brought here at once?

MR. DODD: He is on his way—he is probably right outside the door.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, would the Marshal see if he is available.

MR. DODD: I have not had time, Mr. President, to have the affidavit sworn to because I have not seen the man.

THE PRESIDENT: No, but as far as his cross-examination is concerned, he can be put under oath here.

MARSHAL: No, Sir, he is not here yet.

MR. DODD: He is on his way.

THE PRESIDENT: He is not available.

MR. DODD: He is on his way. He was in Lieutenant Meltzer’s office a minute ago and he went out to get him.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, he can be called then at 2 o’clock after the other witness.

Now, Dr. Siemers, would you be ready?

DR. SIEMERS: Your Honors, may I say, first of all, how I intend to proceed in the presentation of my case?

In accordance with the suggestion of the Court, I should like to call Raeder as a witness in connection with all the documents which the Prosecution has submitted against him. I have given all these documents to Raeder so that he will have them before him on the witness stand, and no time will be lost by handing him each one individually. The British Delegation has kindly compiled the documents which were not included in the Raeder Document Book, in a new Document Book 10a. I assume that this document book is in the possession of the Tribunal.

Thus, to facilitate matters, I shall give the page number of the English Document Book 10a or the English Document Book 10 in the case of each document.

At the same time, if the Tribunal agrees, I intend already now to submit from my own document books those documents which in each case are connected with the matter under discussion. Thank you.

May I then ask that Admiral Raeder be called to the witness stand.

[The Defendant Raeder took the stand.]

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name.

ERICH RAEDER (Defendant): Erich Raeder.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.

[The witness repeated the oath.]

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

DR. SIEMERS: Admiral Raeder, may I ask you first to tell the Tribunal briefly about your past and your professional career?

RAEDER: I was born in 1876 in Wandsbek near Hamburg. I joined the Navy in 1894 and became an officer in 1897. Then normal promotion: two years at the naval academy; in each year, three months leave to study languages; in Russia during the Russo-Japanese War. 1906 to 1908 in the Reich Navy Office, in Von Tirpitz’ Intelligence Division, responsible for the foreign press and the publications Marine Rundschau and Nautikus.

1910 to 1912, Navigation Officer on the Imperial Yacht Hohenzollern. 1912 to the beginning of 1918, First Chief Naval Staff Officer and Chief of Staff to Admiral Hipper who was in command of the battle cruisers.

After the first World War in the Admiralty, as Chief of the Central Division with Admiral Von Trotha. Then two years of writing at the naval archives: history of naval war. From 1922 to 1924, with the rank of Rear Admiral, Inspector of Training and Education in the Navy. 1925 to 1928, as Vice Admiral, chief of the Baltic naval station at Kiel.

On 1 October 1928 Reich President Von Hindenburg named me Chief of the Navy Command in Berlin, at the suggestion of Reich Minister of Defense, Gröner.

In 1935 I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, and on 1 April 1939 Grossadmiral.

On 30 January 1943 resigned as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy; I received the title of Admiral Inspector of the Navy, but remained without any official duties.

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to come back to one point. You said that in 1935 you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. This was only, if I am right, a new name?

RAEDER: It was only a new name.

DR. SIEMERS: So you were head of the Navy from 1928 to 1943?

RAEDER: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: After the Versailles Treaty Germany had an army of only 100,000 men, and a navy of 15,000 men, with officers. In relation to the size of the Reich, the Wehrmacht was thus extremely small.

Was Germany in the twenties in a position to defend herself with this small Wehrmacht against possible attacks by neighboring states, and with what dangers did Germany have to reckon in the twenties?

RAEDER: In my opinion, Germany was not at all in a position to defend herself effectively against attacks, even of the smallest states, since she had no modern weapons; the surrounding states, Poland in particular, were equipped with the most modern weapons, while even the modern fortifications had been taken away from Germany. The danger which Germany constantly faced in the twenties was...

DR. SIEMERS: One moment. Now continue, please.

RAEDER: The danger which Germany constantly faced in the twenties was a Polish attack on East Prussia with the object of severing this territory, already cut off from the rest of Germany by the Corridor, and occupying it. The danger was especially clear to Germany, because at that time Vilna was occupied by the Poles, in the midst of peace with Lithuania; and Lithuania took away the Memel area. In the south, Fiume was also taken away, without objection being raised by the League of Nations or anyone else. It was, however, quite clear to the German Government of those days that one thing which could not be allowed to happen to Germany during that time of her weakness was the occupation of East Prussia and its separation from the Reich. Our efforts were therefore aimed at preparing ourselves to oppose a Polish invasion of East Prussia with all possible means.

DR. SIEMERS: You said that it was feared that such an invasion might take place. Did not several border incidents actually occur in the twenties?

RAEDER: Yes, indeed.

DR. SIEMERS: Is it true that these dangers were recognized, not only by you and by military circles, but also by the governments in the twenties, especially by the Social Democrats and by Stresemann?

RAEDER: Yes. I already said that the government, too, realized that such an invasion could not be allowed to happen.

DR. SIEMERS: Now, the Prosecution has accused you of conduct contrary to international law and contrary to existing treaties, even in the time before Hitler.

On 1 October 1928 you became Chief of the Navy Command, and thus rose to the highest position in the German Navy. Did you, in view of the dangers you have described, use all your power to build up the German Navy within the framework of the Versailles Treaty, particularly with the object of protecting East Prussia?

RAEDER: Yes, I exerted all my strength for the reconstruction of the Navy, and I came to consider this as my life work. In all stages of this period of naval reconstruction, I met with great difficulties; and as a result, I had to battle in one way or another constantly throughout those years in order to put this reconstruction into effect. Perhaps I became rather one-sided, since this fight for the reconstruction of the Navy filled all my time and prevented me from taking part in any matters not directly concerned with it. In addition to material reconstruction, I put every effort into the formation of a competent officer corps and well-trained, especially well-disciplined, crews.

Admiral Dönitz has already commented on the result of this training of our men and officers, and I should like only to confirm that these German naval men earned full recognition in peacetime, both at home and abroad, for their dignified and good behavior and their discipline; and also during the war, when they fought to the end in an exemplary manner, in complete unity, with irreproachable battle ethics, and, in general, did not participate in any kind of atrocities. Also in the occupied areas to which they came, in Norway for instance, they earned full approval of the population for their good and dignified conduct.

DR. SIEMERS: Since for fifteen years you were head of the Navy and reconstructed it in those years, can it be said that as chief of the Navy you are responsible for everything that happened in connection with this reconstruction?

RAEDER: I am fully responsible for it.

DR. SIEMERS: If I am correct, the only qualification would be the date 1 October 1928.

RAEDER: As regards the material rebuilding.

DR. SIEMERS: Who were your superiors, as regards the reconstruction of the Navy? You could not, of course, act with complete independence.

RAEDER: I was subordinate, firstly, to the Reichswehrminister and, through him, to the Reich Government, since I was not a member of the Reich Government; and secondly, I also had to obey the Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht in these matters. From 1925 to 1934 the Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht was Reich President Field Marshal Von Hindenburg, and after his death on 1 August 1934, Adolf Hitler.

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, in this connection may I submit Exhibit Number Raeder-3, a short excerpt from the Constitution of the German Reich. It is Number Raeder-3, in Document Book 1 on Page 9. Article 47 reads:

“The Reich President has the supreme command of all the Armed Forces of the Reich.”

I also submit the Reich Defense Law, as Exhibit Number Raeder-4, Document Book 1, Page 11. I have to return to it later, but now I refer to Article 8 of the Reich Defense Law, which reads as follows:

“The command is exclusively in the hands of the lawful superior...

“The Reich President is the Commander-in-Chief of all Armed Forces. Under him, the Reich Minister for Defense has authoritative powers over all the Armed Forces. At the head of the Reich Army is a General, as Chief of the Army Command; at the head of the Reich Navy, an Admiral, as Chief of the Naval Command.”

These paragraphs remained in full effect under the National Socialist regime. I refer to them only because they confirm what the witness has said. In regard to naval reconstruction, he was thus third in authority: Reich President, Reich Minister of Defense, and then the head of the branches of the Wehrmacht.

Admiral, the Prosecution accuses you of building up the Navy: First, in violation of the Versailles Treaty; secondly, behind the back of the Reichstag and the Reich Government; and thirdly, with the intention of waging aggressive wars.

I should like to ask you now whether the reconstruction of the Navy was undertaken for aggressive or defensive purposes. Make a chronological distinction, however, and speak first about the period overshadowed by the Versailles Treaty, that is, from 1928 until the Naval Agreement with England on 18 June 1935.

My question is: Did the reconstruction of the Navy in this period take place for purposes of aggression as the Prosecution has asserted?

RAEDER: The reconstruction of the Navy did not in any respect take place for the purposes of aggressive war. No doubt it constituted some evasion of the Versailles Treaty. Before I go into details, I should like to ask permission to read a few short quotations from a speech which I made in 1928 in Kiel and Stralsund, the two largest garrisons of my naval station. This speech was delivered before the public during a week devoted to an historical anniversary; and when I took up my duties in Berlin, it was handed as my program to Minister Severing, who regarded me with some suspicion at that time. That is the...

DR. SIEMERS: One moment. Raeder’s statements in the year 1928 show his attitude of that time much more clearly than his present recollections; and for that reason I think the Tribunal will agree that I submit this speech as Exhibit Number Raeder-6, Document Book 1, Page 15. The speech itself begins on Page 17. I shall read...

THE PRESIDENT: Yes?

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, it would take five or ten minutes, so may I ask whether this is a proper time to adjourn? I am willing to continue, however.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

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