A Dialogue Between Dean Swift and Tho. Prior, Esq. / In the Isles of St. Patrick's Church, Dublin, On that / Memorable Day, October 9th, 1753

by Anonymous

Swift. I don't like praying to Saints that must pray to others. Our best Way is to address his Majesty for whatever we stand in need of; tho' after all, what can we hope England will do for us, who sees our Wants, knows what has occasioned them, and what would relieve them, and yet takes not the least Step to serve us. This single Circumstance looks with an ill-omen'd Aspect on the Affairs of Ireland, and is another main Reason, which I must offer to you, why I think our Days of Prosperity are as far off as the great Platonick Year.

Prior. I have often thought, Mr. Dean, our Clamours against England very ill grounded, tho' many, who know they are false or foolish, are apt, for no good Ends, to encourage them. 'Tis to England that we owe that we are yet a Nation, that we are Freemen and Protestants, and enjoy our civil and religious Rights, by the same Zeal and Efforts which secured their own. They have left large Branches of Trade and Manufactures open to us; and even our Linen and our Fisheries, our Tillage and our Collieries, our Salt-works, and our Mines, (not to mention many others) would employ most of the idle Hands in the Kingdom, if we would once set vigorously about them. Can we be so unreasonable as to expect she will distress her own Natives, to encourage those in Ireland, as if they had not Sense to consider, that their Charity, as well as ours, should ever begin at home? It can never be denied, that they have done largely for us, if we would do something to help ourselves, with proper Industry, and an eager Zeal to serve our Country. They do not hinder us to save 300000 l. per Annum, by using our own Woollen and Silken Manufactures, our own Salt, our own Sugar, our own Grain, Hops and Coals, Ale, Cyder, Bark and Cheese, our own Iron and Iron-ware, Paper and Glass; and if we will not work them up, nor use them when wrought, are they to be blamed, or we? Would you have them make a Law to prohibit the Importation of such Things to Ireland, and force us to use our Hands for our own Wants, whether we will or no?

Swift. I wish they would; it would be of infinite Service to this poor Country, which they impoverish by the wasteful Consumption of English Goods, that devour our Money, and deaden our Industry. That we owe many Blessings to England, I never doubted, even when I was alive, and as far as was in her Power, disgraced and maltreated by her, and much less shall I dispute it now. However, I can reckon up a large Catalogue of Complaints and Distresses, which Ireland can very justly charge her with.

Prior. Allowing all this to be true, as, to my Sorrow, I see you have some Grounds for your Assertion; are they to be reviled or envy'd for sending us their Goods, if we are so mad as to call for them? Would you have them hinder your buying their Commodities? Or, to go a little further, would we be hinder'd if they did? If we cut our own Throats, in our own wise Judgments, would you have them make a Law to gibbet us for it after we are dead? I allow you many of our Murmurings are just; but for the Love of Truth and Goodness, let us lament our Case with some Sense, and begin at the right End with railing at ourselves. I do not deny, that we are much impoverish'd by their Importations, nay, that by them we are in some Sense of the Word, Beggars; But, dear Dean, who ever hated Beggars more than you did, that had Health and Hands, and could work and help themselves, and would not. If our People will neither set up Manufactures, nor encourage them when set up, if they will not promote Agriculture by large Premiums through the Kingdom, but had rather beg Bread from their industrious Neighbours; if they will neither build Granaries, or set up Fisheries or Collieries: If Gentlemen will neither live at home, nor build and improve their Estates, to tempt their Sons to live there; if they see Societies set up for the Service of Ireland, and won't spare Shillings a-piece from their Diversions, to increase their Force and Power to help us, are the English to be blamed, or ourselves, if they leave it to our Choice either to mend our Follies, or to suffer by them.

Swift. The Truth is (though I am loth to confess it) I fear we are too lazy, because we are not extraordinarily encouraged, either here or by England; and probably they want to see us more alert, before they help us further; and in the mean time, between our Gentlemen who go abroad for Pleasure, and our Poor for Bread, we are like a Ship that is run a-ground, and the Hands which should have saved her gone off. People that are unfortunate love to have some one to lay the Blame on; and so we rail at England, as I remember Mrs. Halley (the Wife of the famous Astronomer) did at the Stars, who used to wring her Hands, and bawl out, My Curse, and God's Curse upon them for Stars, for they have ruined me and my Family; whereas, like Job's Wife, she ought to have cursed her Husband for his star-gazing Folly. At the same Time I never did, nor ever will forgive England for not helping us more than she does: We are a Mint in her Hands, but through her Negligence or Diffidence it is an unwrought one, though the Ore is vastly rich and promising.

Prior. I must agree with you there, and yet I am convinced, that the Fear of making their own People jealous, the Weight of their Debts, their violent Parties, and their decayed Trade, prevent their doing all they would for us or themselves; the Charity, the unbounded Charity, England extended to us at the Revolution, her Encouragement to our Linens, our Woollen Yarn, and our Cambricks, and to name no more, her Benefactions to our Charter-Schools, are Evidences of her Love to us which can never be forgotten. But beside all this, if England has a Zeal for her own Welfare, she must have a good Will for ours; for she knows and feels every Improvement made in Ireland, that does not directly clash with her Interest, is pouring Treasure into her own Lap, as regularly as what the River gets is returned to the Ocean. 'Tis evident, if we are better cloath'd, peopled, fed, and housed here; if our Wealth be encreased, or our Inhabitants or Country improved, we shall of Course take off more of her Goods, and spend more of our Money in London, which is to all Intents and Purposes, as much our Metropolis as England's. We already, by the mending of our Circumstances in some Respects, and the raising our Rents, do actually spend thrice as much there as our Grandfathers did; and it is as plain a Truth, that our Grandchildren will hereafter redouble what we carry there now. Can there be a Doubt then, that England must consult our Welfare, as long as she attends to her own? Though we live in different Islands, we are in effect but one People, and generally Children of the same Family; all we want to make us happy together is, that the elder Brother should carry to us with Affection and Regard and we to him with Respect and Deference, without Jealousies or Quarrels for Trifles or Things that cannot be helped, we never interfering with them, nor they oppressing or cramping us.

Swift. You are a very civil Magistrate, as St. John says, and have adjusted Things very amicably; but there is another Reason for England's protecting us, which I cannot pass by, and that is because any bold Step of the Crown in future Ages to absolute Power, will probably begin here. 'Tis therefore to be hoped, our Brethren in Great-Britain, who (whatever may become of them) are not born Slaves like some People I won't name, will watch us like a Beacon, whenever bad or weak Men set this poor Island on Fire, either to plunder or to frighten it, or for any other noble political Scheme. I must own, Tom, while I was playing the Fool in the World, like my Neighbours, I used to rail at England severely, and I had my Reasons for it; but though I am altered much as to that Point, there are several Things that I still think her blameable in, and particularly for the small Number of Irishmen that are preferred in Church and State. The Want of all proper Encouragement here, for every Man's exerting his Abilities as far as they can go, has terrible Effects on the very Genius and Character of our Nation. It actually keeps our Schools unfill'd, and thins our College to a surprising Degree; and makes our People look on the little [ Virtue ] we have yet kept among us, as useless and impertinent in a Country, where they are out of Fashion, and where Alliance, and Blood, and Family-Interest, make our Constitution in Church and State, (and especially the Church) rather hereditary than elective. This is a great national Grievance, so as to make it a Sort of Misfortune to be born here; nor do I see any Hopes of a Remedy, unless we get a Bill of Naturalization past on the other Side of the Water for all Irishmen, as well as for the Jews. At present there is as little Encouragement for Knowledge, or the learned Arts in Ireland, as in the Isle of Man, or rather less; for though their Preferments and Posts are fewer, they are only bestowed on Natives. By this Means it will come to pass in Time, that our Parts must be as slight as our Encouragements, and poor as our Country; for here, as in the dead Level of the Ocean, there is no Rising but by Storms and Tempests, and the Miseries and Ruins they occasion; and therefore half our Gentry owe their Estates to the Wars and Rebellions of Madmen and Bigots. But as to Eminence in Learning, or distinguish'd Abilities, they are quite overlook'd; or at least the Handful, that Ireland has seen preferred of her Natives by them, is miserably small. In other Nations some, nay, Crowds, are advanced by their Knowledge and Talents, but here they are discountenanced and brow-beaten; some are enriched by Trade, but here all we have is contrived to ruin us: Some make large Fortunes by their Skill in the Laws, but with us, where Plaintiffs or Defendants are one or other of them Beggars, the Proverb will tell you what is got by the Suit. I must add to all these Complaints, that even Avarice cannot bring a Man in Ireland a moderate Acquisition of Wealth; for here all Men do so universally outlive their Circumstances, that Saving is grown as scandalous as Thieving, and a Man is hooted out of the World more frequently for the one, than he is hanged for the other.

Prior. It is easier, Mr. Dean, to exclaim on this Head, than to shew the Justice of the Complaint; for whoever will carefully look over the Lists of those who have been preferred in Church and State for some Years, will find there has been greater Attention than ever paid to this Matter. But lest you should dispute this Fact, I will only hint, that there are Grounds to say, this Complaint will not be so common a Topick of Discourse with Irishmen, as we knew it in our Time; and probably as Learning and Knowledge may therefore make greater Advances among us than ever, we shall find Irishmen hereafter as much distinguished by their Preferments as their Merit. But however that may be, it will be as great Madness for us to malign or revile England on such Disgusts and Slights, as for a younger Son to quarrel with his Father, to whom he owes his being what he is, and who may in Time vastly enlarge his Portion and his Happiness, if he behaves with Duty and Love. This I will be bold to say, [ that ] we are possess'd of as many civil Advantages, under our Connections with England, as we enjoy from our natural ones, and our Situation in this Climate, this Sun, and this World of Life and Matter, where we derive so many Blessings from the Bounty of the Creator.

Swift. I wish, Tom, you would not stir that Bone of Contention, for there is a great deal to be said on both Sides of the Question, which, as I love to keep in good Humour, and be as quiet in my Grave as I can, I do not care for wrangling about. But this I must say, as to your Hints of our being Children of the same Family, that you had better let them alone, for it stirs my Spleen too violently. I am sure, if we are so, we fare like the rest of the younger Children in the World, who get but a Pittance to starve on, while the elder Brother runs away with the Bulk of the Fortune. I will not dwell on what we lose to her by Absentees, but I know between our Wool, our Woollen and Worsted Yarn, our Linens and Linen Yarn, our Copper, Lead, and Iron Ore, our Hides, Skins, Tallow, all which are the Primums and Foundations of her great Manufactures, she makes immense Gains by her Trade with our Country, and the Ships she employs in it. I must also add, that we take from her the largest Supplies of her Grain and her Manufactures of any Nation upon Earth; and besides the Crowds of English Gentlemen, that are possess'd of Employments, Commissions, Pensions, and Preferments here, she makes near two Millions by the Trade with Ireland; which I know is more than she gains from the rest of the World. I am not peevish, or at least so peevish, as I used to be, when I had vile Flesh and Blood about me; but these are plain confest honest Truths, and if that generous large thoughted Nation, will consider them calmly and candidly; possibly she will make us other Returns, than cramping our Trade, making us poor Petitioners, for leave to live by our Linen, and binding us by Laws (a Thing which every Briton shou'd start at) to which we never gave our Consent.

Prior. I cannot enter on that Subject, without irritating you, and therefore, Mr. Dean, I will drop it; but this I must say, that England had probably shewn us more Affection and Indulgence, if she had not been kept in perpetual Alarms, by our endeavouring to Rival her in her great Staple, the Woollen Trade. I have heard of some Women, who to regain their Husband's Affections, strove to make them Jealous; but I fancy that is no good Artifice, to make Nations love one another, and I hope as our Linen Manufactures, and our Tillage encrease in the South; we shall remove all uneasiness from that Quarter. It is certain our Interests and England's are inseparably united, and he must be a very weak, or a very malicious Man, who wou'd endeavour to divide our Inclinations, and set up a [ Wall ] Partition between us; by keeping up artificial Jealousy on the one Side, and unnatural Aversion on the other. It wou'd be absurd to think that because we have a broader Arm of the Sea, between us and England than the Isle of Wight, or Anglesea; that therefore we ought to have, different Rules and Views of Acting; whereas we shou'd consider ourselves as one People, join'd in one System of Government, Religion, Laws and Liberties; and he that divides us Ruins us.