When he had explained that to us in great detail, it seemed to me that Thierack’s attitude on that point was not altogether clear. On the contrary, I had the impression that Thierack had understanding for that request which Himmler had put forward.
No details were discussed as to what type of prisoner Himmler wanted transferred, but it was said in a general way that only prisoners with long terms would be considered for such transfer, since prisoners with short terms would have to be discharged again at an early date.
I myself kept silent on that point to begin with, because for one thing I did not feel certain on that question, and secondly, because Thierack had especially asked me to hold back. However, in the course of our talk—I do not remember whether it was immediately or whether it was later on—the conversation turned to the subject of the general relations between the administration of justice and the police. That conversation dealt mainly with the old arguments concerning the Schwarze Korps and Himmler’s correction of sentences. Himmler was of the opinion that the administration of justice had failed in various instances, and for that reason he had been compelled to intervene. Since Thierack, on that point too, did not take up a clear attitude in favor of the administration of justice, I considered it my duty to interfere. Naturally, I was cautious in my manner, but I was clear as far as the matter itself was concerned. I had just been appointed by Hitler and had the belief that Hitler was backing up my plans. I said that the problem of the police and the administration of justice could not be considered just from the point of view of one single sentence which might have been correct or incorrect, but that one must regard that problem from the general point of view of the reputation of the judiciary. I said that the reputation of the State as such was dependent upon the reputation of the judiciary.
In speaking of these things I referred to my memorandum and my opinion that Hitler had approved my memorandum on those points, too. I said that from that point of view I, too, considered it incorrect for the administration of justice to transfer prisoners to the police. If the prisoners were not being put to sufficient use for the war effort, the administration of justice itself would have to see to it that sufficient use would be made of such prisoners.
Himmler listened to my remarks with comparative calm. It seemed to me that he had understanding for what I was saying.
He said that he had never heard of these problems from that angle, and he said that in future he would instruct the Schwarze Korps to refrain from attacking the administration of justice; he would also stop the police from intervening in the case of individual sentences.
These two subjects had thus been concluded. The question of the transfer of prisoners seemed to me to remain undecided. Besides that point a few other problems were discussed, for example, the question of the asocial law.
Q. I wonder, would you for my convenience tell me the technical name of the asocial law, either by date or in any other way? What law are you referring to as the asocial law?
A. May it please the Court, that is not a law in the sense of ever having become a law. It is merely a draft which dealt with the question as to whether the police were to be allowed to arrest asocial elements. Have I made myself clear, Your Honor?
Q. In saying “the asocial law,” you didn’t mean that there was any law at all?