If Himmler would have gotten the prosecution into his hands, which he had wanted to do for years, that agency which hitherto had been objective would have been in Himmler’s hands. Himmler’s struggle against the administration of justice would have been carried into the courtroom. That explains my great misgivings against that demand of Himmler’s. For this reason, as far as I knew this problem would become acute, I considered it my duty, although formally it did not concern me, but because it was a basic question for the reputation of the judiciary as such, I tried with all means at my disposal to persuade Thierack before the discussions that on no account was he to give way on that point. I had all the more cause to do so because I had the feeling that Thierack wavered on that point. I did not know, I only heard that here, that actually on the occasion of the Elias case which has been mentioned here, in Czechoslovakia he in a certain way had already committed himself. I made particular use of this factor without Thierack—I told him that if the prosecution would no longer be under the administration of justice, you yourself, who directs the penal administration of justice, will lose the ground under your feet. What I said was, “you yourself will saw off the branch on which you are sitting.” That factor evidently did have some effect upon him; it evidently succeeded.
The second problem which would probably be broached by Himmler was the question of the community law concerning asocials, which has already been mentioned. I shall refer to that briefly later, because that problem was discussed during the conference.
There were two further points which I thought would be broached. They were old hobby horses of my own. I am referring to the question of the Schwarze Korps and that of the correction of sentences. Thierack himself said to me before the conference on the way there—we went there together—“Will you keep in the background at the conference, please, because, on the one hand, the problems will probably concern matters which do not affect you, that is to say, matters of the administration of penal justice; and furthermore, I do not want an argument to arise between us again, which is quite apparent to outsiders, such as occurred during our visit to Lammers a month ago.”
Q. What happened at the conference itself?
A. It is nearly 5 years ago now since that conference took place, but as it was very impressive I believe I can remember it fairly well. It was not a formal meeting, since only a very small circle of people attended. It was, in fact, an informal conversation, interrupted by a supper. Himmler was the main speaker. I noticed this manner of speaking was very much like that of Hitler’s.
Presiding Judge Brand: Wouldn’t it be possible for you to concentrate a little more on the actual material features of the conversation?
Defendant Rothenberger: Yes.
Q. We don’t care how he spoke, or about his manner.
A. Yes, Your Honor.
To begin with, he made general remarks about the war situation, of which he took a favorable view. I do not remember now the sequence of the individual points which are mentioned in the minutes, but I do believe that he then immediately went over to the subject of the transfer of prisoners, that is to say, the transfer from the administration of justice to the police. That was a problem which was entirely new to me. He said that through his organizations he had had the facts established that the prisoners under the administration of justice, on the one hand, were badly overcrowded, and furthermore that in some cases at those prisons, work was still being performed which was not essential to the war effort. He mentioned handicraft and pasting together of paper bags. He himself, on the other hand, had constructed large armament works. He was of the opinion that at a time when every German, be it the soldier at the front or the man or woman in the homeland, was working for the war efforts, the prisoners too, in one form or another, should make their contribution toward the war effort.