A. That draft comes from Freisler’s sphere, and in the absence of the Reich Minister of Justice Guertner, as well as Freisler, I signed that draft upon the request of the Minister. That draft provided absolutely equal treatment of Germans and Poles. Later on, 6 June 1940, a decree was issued about the introduction of penal law in the Incorporated Eastern Territories and that decree was only designed for Poles and Jews; that shows that before my time, and without any assistance on my part a special law was created for Poles and Jews. Apparently Freisler afterward gave in to the efforts of the Party and had managed after hard struggles to obtain the approval of Guertner, who, as I know, was against such a thing on principle. But the decree of 6 June 1940 bears the signatures of Frick and Guertner.
Q. That decree will be contained in my document, Schlegelberger 60.[395] Then, it came to the penal ordinance concerning Jews and Poles, 7 December 1941, that is Exhibit 343.[396] Will you please discuss that decree in detail?
A. That decree of 7 December 1941 which has been the subject of a detailed discussion in this trial is based on the following: The decree of June 1940, in the view of the department of criminal legislation in the Ministry, was not satisfactory. And that was because the extent of punishment was not sufficient, neither the maximum nor the minimum of punishment was sufficient. There was also a lack of specific provisions. In addition to that, the Reich Chancellery had informed the Ministry, that the deputy of the Fuehrer and the Party, demanded a discriminatory law concerning Poles and Jews.
Q. I refer to Exhibit 341.[397]
A. Therefore, the Department for Penal Legislation—that was before my period in office as Acting Reich Minister of Justice—had started to work out a new draft which should take care of these deficiencies. When I took over after Guertner’s death, Freisler reported to me about that matter and told me the following: It was Himmler’s intention to obtain sole competency for all cases against Poles and Jews, and that Gauleiter Greiser of Warthegau province was of the same opinion, and he if necessary wanted to eliminate the administration of justice with the aid of civilian courts martial. Bormann was of the same opinion and demanded, first of all, the introduction of corporal punishment. According to this information I had to expect a fight with the Party. This fight which was fought to maintain legal procedures for Poles and Jews in all events, could only be successful if I could point out that the courts had at their disposal an appropriate procedure and appropriate provisions which were sufficient for all, even the most serious cases. The new draft,[398] in my opinion, was designed to rebut the assertion by the Party that the courts could not master the situation. Therefore, in April 1941, I submitted that draft to the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense to the attention of Reich Minister Lammers, in order to achieve a decision. I also announced to Lammers that I had to see him in advance to inform him about the situation, and about the conditions which lead to the draft in that form. The prosecution has repeatedly referred to that covering letter which accompanied the draft.[399] Therefore, I should like to explain the reason for this letter, and the manner in which it was written. According to the legal provisions, to those provisions which I have already discussed, I had to have the approval of the Party Chancellery, but only then did I have any chance to obtain that approval, if that draft was implemented with those main points which I considered necessary.
If I had described in my letter the contents and consequences of the draft without exaggeration, I could never have expected the approval of the Party Chancellery. Therefore, I had no alternative but to emphasize the increases in the severity of treatment with exaggerated expressions, to pass over less severe provisions, and to leave out references to decrees which would make this decree more lenient. Whether it came to any conference with Lammers, I could no longer tell. I remember quite clearly the event which proved to me that my assumption was correct, that we would have to expect a most energetic attack on the part of Himmler.
In the summer of 1941, Himmler asked me to come to a conference. That was the only one I ever had with Himmler. There was a great pressure with regard to time connected with that request. Himmler told me that he was on his way to see Hitler and that he had to have my approval. Penal cases against Poles and Jews should be turned over to him, that is to say, to the police. That was regardless of where the acts had been committed.
I rejected that categorically and told him that for that kind of change of competence, there was no reason whatsoever, particularly since in a very short time a new regulation could be expected about that question by the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense. That, of course, made Himmler suspicious. At that time, it did not seem to him to be the right thing to fight against the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense which was under the presidency of Goering, at that time a strong opponent. Himmler seemed to depart for a short time from his original plan.
The Ministerial Council for Reich Defense passed that draft in December of the same year and that determined and assured the competence of the courts for penal cases against Poles and Jews[400]. When I left office that was immediately changed as could be seen from these proceedings. That decree dates back to December 1941, as I have already pointed out the period when my task as Acting Minister of Justice came to an end. It is not surprising that I could not gain a clear picture, as to how that decree was applied and what the consequences were.
I do recognize that one could criticize individual sentences at least as far as the limited amount of material is concerned which is available to us now. However, considering that there were about half a million penal cases during 1 year—as regrettable as it may be in the individual case—it is not very decisive for an over-all judgment of conditions. I owe it to the German judges to state here frankly and publicly that as long as I could observe their activity, they have discharged their duties with a definite desire for justice in general.