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Dr. Orth: Witness, will you please comment again on Exhibit 453?[445]
Defendant Altstoetter: Here I have to say first, briefly, that the descent cases which I have just mentioned, especially the right of the prosecution to raise charges in descent cases, since the so-called laws concerning Jews were issued, were used as a means for Aryanization as we called it. In cases, that is to say, where a man who according to the law was considered to be a Jew was of the opinion that he was not to be considered a Jew, he himself filed a claim for the establishment of the fact that he was not a Jew, that is, that he was not a descendant of a Jew. Or if his right to file that claim or the right of his father to do so no longer existed because the term to do so had expired, he went to the public prosecutor to make the public prosecutor file this claim. The latter was the case when a suit was filed in order to challenge the legality of a marriage. Now in cases where these claims were filed in the course of the war, particularly during the last years of the war, considerable difficulties arose. I only want to mention two, but there were more of those. One was the lack of experts in the field of genetics which was caused by the war. The other reason was the thing that had occurred with the courts in Vienna. In other courts it did not occur, as far as I know. There in Vienna a particular difficulty arose owing to the fact that the police, as far as Jewish witnesses for these descent trials were concerned—in most cases it was a question of so-called witnesses for the investigation or witnesses for the purpose of comparison—that the police, as I said, for reasons of security had removed these witnesses and now refused to produce them or to release them. That can be seen from the letter of the police of 3 May 1944, which is in this exhibit. Objections against the attitude of the police which were raised by the subdepartment chief, Ministerialrat Rexroth, in the course of a conference with a Referent, were only successful to the extent that the police consented in exceptional cases to produce witnesses if the Reich Minister of Justice expressly demanded that. Moreover, the police referred to the lack of means of transportation and escort personnel caused by the war. With matters as they stood, the Reich Ministry of Justice could do nothing else but to bring them to the attention of the courts in Vienna through the president of the district court of appeals. For the people concerned who desired to carry out by that suit, as I have called it, an Aryanization, the fact that these witnesses were not produced as a rule did not amount to any disadvantage. The persons concerned on their part, either if they had instituted the proceedings themselves in their own interest or if they had requested of the public prosecutor to institute proceedings, had themselves presented to the public prosecutor evidence for their assertion that they were not descendants of a Jew or a person of mixed Jewish descent. And if the court could not produce the expert opinions of geneticists which officially had to be produced and for which these witnesses for the purpose of comparison were needed, then the court could do nothing else but on the basis of the evidence which the Jews concerned had submitted, to decide, and that this evidence was in favor of the person filing the claim is obvious. And to that the remarks in Exhibit 453 refer, that one had to put up with it if in this manner the intentions to cover up for the true descent could not be prevented.
Q. Witness—
Presiding Judge Brand: Let me ask you this. Concerning these claimants suspected of being Jews but claiming to be Aryans, how far back did they have to trace their ancestry to prove that they were Aryans?
Defendant Altstoetter: They were not compelled to go far back. It sufficed to prove that either one of the parents was not Jewish, and if that could not be proved, they also could refer to the fact that other ancestors of theirs were not Jewish. The question as to whether a person was a Jew or was not a Jew was laid down in the meaning of the Nuernberg laws, these laws and the decrees to carry out these laws. But the suits themselves were not concerned with that, but subsequently the main thing was whether—
Q. Did they have to prove that their grandparents were not Jewish?
A. Mr. President, we have to distinguish here—
Q. Just tell me yes or no first, and then you may distinguish. Here is a man who claims he is an Aryan. He wants to prove it. What of his ancestors must he prove were not Jews? Can you answer?
A. Framed in this way, as far as these suits were concerned, I cannot answer the question because as far as these suits were concerned that question was of no importance.