Dr. Koessl: May it please the Tribunal, I object against the examination. I object to the examination in this manner, because the opinion which is stated by the witness, the legal opinion which is stated by the witness shows that he is not an expert, and furthermore, he has not been called as an expert witness.
Presiding Judge Marshall: We see nothing in the answer in the nature of which shows anything other than he was just stating a conversation, the way we get it.
Witness Elkar: I do not in any way wish to give an expert opinion here. I only wanted to explain why I came to speak about the case of Katzenberger, because I was asked whether he spoke of any other case, and particularly this case is one which was mentioned as the case of Katzenberger. Therefore, may I continue with my statement? At the time the facts were not complete, because it was not proved so far as I know that the German woman was doing anything more, according to the proof, other than that she was sitting on his lap, and Rothaug—I remember that quite clearly here—said that one had to take the human facts into consideration and could hardly expect that a man of that kind, he meant the man Katzenberger, would act otherwise once the girl had been sitting on his lap, and that consequently, he considered the proof as given.
Mr. King: Now may I for a brief moment digress to another subject. In your position with the SD you undoubtedly had an opportunity to observe the political influence that various people with whom you came in contact exercised?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you know about Rothaug’s influence with the Party men who ran the Gau Franconia. What are your impressions?
A. Rothaug had some close connections to the Gau Inspector Haberkern. Haberkern as Gau Inspector could gain an insight in all matters going on in the Gau, and in my opinion for a discussion of such matters, particularly in the legal field, he took the advice of Rothaug, so that, since the Gauleiter depended on Haberkern, Rothaug certainly could have his opinion go to the Gauleiter on legal matters.
Q. What men besides Haberkern were influential in directing the affairs of the Gau Franconia?
A. Well, first, Streicher was Gauleiter. After he left, there were several staff office chiefs who were acting, and then Holz became acting Gauleiter. Then Holz went to the army, and at that time the Kreisleiter Zimmermann was in charge of the official business of the Gauleiter and as far as I know, the relationship between Zimmermann, Haberkern, and Rothaug was very close.
Q. May I at this point ask you to clarify one matter. You say that Streicher, Haberkern, Holz, and Zimmermann, as leaders of the Gau, were, of necessity, members of the Party Leadership Corps?